Re: Res: [tied] Reindeer domestication : two orig ins

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:

>
> On 2008-12-15 12:17, tgpedersen wrote:
>
> > Why would a word for "reindeer" not be a loan in Germanic?
> > According to Tacitus, amber was 'glaesum' in Aestian. If that
> > word is from PIE *gel- "freeze, coagulate" or *g^el- "shine"
> > (probably the same root *g^el- anyway), Aestian did not have
> > initial stress, nor did the language(s) from which *xraina- and
> > *xrinþiz- ~ *xrunðiz- were borrowed.
>
> The place of accent doesn't matter here. As Verner's Law
> demonstrates, Proto-Germanic accent was not necessarily initial at
> first, and the *þ ~ *ð and *in ~ *un variation in the 'horned
> cattle' word proves accentual mobility in this particular word (as
> in many native ones).

> Assuming a substratal filter doesn't explain the structure of
> *xraina- or the nature of its supposed relationships.

Proto-Germanic accent was initial. Let's be more specific.
The accent of some ancestor of Germanic was not. Possibly the accent
of some major donor of loans to Proto-Gmc. wasn't either. Now wrt.
glaesum there's ODa. glar "glass", wrt. Hase/hare the corresponding
Latin is *k^a[s]-n- > ca:n-, thus with matching /a/'s as in Kuhn's
list, and I can't think up any example of a Gmc. noun with Verner
alternation that is without indicators that it might be a loan; could
you cite an example?
Of course 'direct descent' Gmc. verbs show Verner alternation, it's
just that I have a hunch that Verner alternation in Gmc. nouns had
been eliminated by PGmc time and only occurred in loans.

> The kind of formation represented by *xraina- < *k(^)roi-no- (?) is
> well-known (the "tormos" type);

I see that you have been thinking of ways to get rid of rthe laryngeal.

> it's just the root that is difficult to
> identify. At any rate, the association with 'horn' is by no means
> guaranteed. There's more to being a reindeer than sporting a pair
> of antlers (isn't there, Rudolph?).
>
> As for *xrinþiz- ~ *xrunðiz-, I already have some ideas, but it's
> to early to show my hand. Give me some time to prepare.

I'm looking forward to your derivation from PIE *kVr- "red nose" ;-)

In the meanwhile,
1) *xrinþiz- ~ *xrunþiz-, as if they should be divided *xr-inþ-iz- ~
*xr-unþ-iz-, in which case the i/u alternation is a case of Gmc.
suffix vowel alternation and we can leave out Verner effects.

2) As an alternative explanation, note Kuhn's example Lat. Lupia
"Lippe" with apparent /u/ > /i/.


Torsten