Re: Vaz(h)ra / uz(h)ra

----- Original Message -----
From: "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...>

> Is there a possibility that the Indo-Iranian word Vaz(h)
ra "Indra's
> hammer/ax" could have a variant Uz(h)ra with wa-/u- alternation ?
>
> This would help understand some strange words in Uralic.


I understand the etymology of Skt. vájra- this way:

*wag^- 'to break, smash, strike, split, bite' (preferable to
*weh2g^-, which presents too many problems) > *wág^-ró- 'smashing'
(a Caland ro-stem adjective) > *wág^-ros- (noun) 'cudgel, mace,
club' > OInd. vájra- 'mythical weapon of Indra', OIr. vazra- 'main
weapon of Mithra' (both from IIr. *uájra-); Grk. PN
Meléagros 'caring for the club' (< *mele-wagros); and, according to
Mallory & Adams, perhaps Gmc. PN Odoacer (< Gothic < Proto-Gmc.
*auda-wakraz 'rich in weapons'?).

Finish vasara- 'hammer' and its cognates in other Finnic languages
may represent an OIr. loan word (< vazra-), thus, indicating early
C.Asian / S.Russian contacts, although S. Starostin regards this as
a set of inherited words:

http://tinyurl.com/5vf6g6

Some linguists hold that the word loaned into Proto-FU (in the form
*was'ara- 'hammer, axe') might have been Proto-IIr. *uájra- rather
than Proto-Ir. *vazra (vel sim.). This is stated on account of the
palatalized sibilant reconstructed for the Proto-FU term, whereas
depalatalization, conversely, already took place in Proto-Ir.

Regards,
Francesco

=======
Thank you, Francesco,

I would not conclude that Starostin "regards" this as a set of inherited
words.
The Uralic database here is just the UEW edited by Redei made available.
There is no emendation, very few comments and the database has all the
qualities and (major) defects of the UEW.

Finnish: vasara 'Hammer'
Estonian: vasar (gen. vasara)
This looks good as an Iranian LW from *vazra > vasara.

Saam (Lapp): væc^c^er ˜ vǣz^er -æc^c^- (N), viehtjēr ˜ vǟhtjēr, miehtjēr
(L), viec^c^er (T Kld.), viehc^er (Not.)
This is already more difficult.
The sound is not s/z but z^ which points at *vaz^ra : hence Indic, not
Iranian.
The vowel ae/ie is not that much regular.
The explanation that z^ triggers this is ad-hoc.

Mordovian: uźeŕ (E M), viźiŕ (E) 'Axt'
This is even worse.
I cannot see how *vaz(^)ra could possibly become vizir ??
And even less uzer
How is possible that :
Indic vaniyati "he begs" > Moksha ana-ms
Indic vaniyaka "beggar" > Moksha anajka
Then
*vaz(^)ra becomes Moksha uzer ??

If this is a LW, the original form must be something different from
*vaz(^)ra

Both Saami and Mordovian point at something like *waz(^)ér or *wez(^)ér or
*uzér

What can be done with the pre-forms ?
Is there a particular dialect of Indo-Iranian where they make sense ?

Arnaud