Here is my very long answer which I have combined.
(1) [about Atar]
Piotr wrote:
>>Re: [tied] Re: Asian Migration to Scandinavia
>>
>>On 2008-10-16 04:46, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
>> This seems unlikely: my understanding is that the etymology
>> of <a:tar> is unknown.
>
>From the root *h2ah1- 'burn', according to many, but at any rate
>nothing to do with Easter.
>
>Piotr
See below.
--------------------------
(2) Francesco wrote:
>Yes, the etymology of the Avestan term a:tar ~ a:qr (see A.
>Lubotsky's IA etym. database) *'fire' (n.) > 'fire-god' (m.) is
>still unknown.
>
>On the contrary, R.gvedic atri 'a devourer; name of a r.s.i' is from
>*at-tri, i.e. from the IA root ad- 'to eat, consume' (cf. atra for
>*at-tra, meaning both 'a devourer, demon' and 'food'; atrin 'a
>devourer, demon').
>
>The term atri is once used in the R.gveda (2.85) as an epithet of
>the fire-god Agni, but this does not mean it was a cognate of
>Avestan a:tar.
I find it odd that anyone would say that the etymology of atar is
unknown, and it's also curious that the Skt. words atharvan, more or
less `fire priest' and Atharvaveda, (one of the vedas) are also said
to have no etymology. I don't have Lubotsky, which you refer to
often, but I'll try to find it. Here is what I used:
*Haeus(os), a goddess of dawn or the sun, e.g. Ushas, many examples,
(p. 409, 410, 432, Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the
Proto-Indo-European World'', by J.P. Mallory and Douglas Q. Adams,
Oxford University Press, Oxford, 2006), which includes Hittite
au `lord, god.' Approximately the same info is included in the
Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, J.P. Mallory and Douglas Q.
Adams, ed., Fitzroy Dearborn, London, 1997, which I also use. Under
Haeusos in EIEC p. 148, they include Lat. Aurora, OE eastre 'goddess
of springtime' etc., (although these obviously have various
extensions.) They translate this root as `dawn' with a sense of `ro
shine'.
*(Ha)aeust(e)ro, p. 294, 301, Oxford Intro. but see the form *as-t-
r, "with intrusive -t- [between s and r] in northern dialects" given
on p. 702, and 780, G&I. I think all of these forms are included in
one or the other of those references.
(Gah! diacritics! The Ha which I put in parentheses in the second
form above is supposed to be a laryngeal with -a- coloring, that is
the a should be in subscript. I also use cap. H for laryngeals to
distinguish them from lower case h which marks an aspirate.)
G&I refers to Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans: A Reconstruction
and Historical Analysis of a Proto-Language and a Proto-Culture
(Trends in Linguistics: Studies and Monographs 80, 2 Vol. Set), by
Thomas V. Gamkrelidze, and Vjaceslav V. Ivanov, with Werner Winter,
ed., and Johanna Nichols, translator (original title Indoevropeiskii
iazyk i indoevropeistsy), M. De Gruyter, Berlin & NY, 1995.
Words that mean `fire' and words that mean `devourer' are not far
apart semantically, since fire devours. This seems to be a common
observation or metaphor among IE. Are you objecting to my use of the
form Atri when it should be atra, or atrin? OK.
>Regards,
>Francesco
----------------------------------------
(3) Piotr wrote:
>On 2008-10-16 10:34, Francesco Brighenti wrote:
>
>Why not *h2áh1-to:r- from *h2ah1- 'burn, be hot', as in Pal. ha:ri,
>ha:nta (more widespread and better known with an *-s- extension)? Cf.
>Albanian *a:tra: > *otrë > Geg votër, Tosk vatër 'fire, hearth', and
>probable traces in Slavic.
You propose H2áH1-to:r, is that in Lubotsky also? I'm giving approx.
the same form from Mallory and Adams, above.
>Piotr
>-------------------------------------------------------
(4) Francesco wrote:
>Dear Piotr,
>
>--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
>wrote [snipped]:
>
>The etymology for Old Iranian a:tar 'fire' you hint at is discussed
>in detail by Douglas Q. Adamas here:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/46o5qk
>[if you can't view the fonts properly, click on "Change viewing
>parameters" on top of page and set the encoding to Utf-8]
>
>Like you, Adams considers PIE *h2eh1-s- an "eìlargissement" to the
>root *h2eh1- 'to burn'. Old Iranian a:tar 'fire' (*'burner') would
>be formed on the unextended root plus the *-ter- (*-tor-, *-te:r-, *-
>to:r-, *-tr-) agent noun suffix. A very elegant solution indeed.
>Material:
>Avestan a:tar...'fire'...;
>Armenian airem 'burns, lights' (due to form *air- from *a:te:r);
>Serbian vatra 'fire', Ukrainian vaìtra 'fire, stove', Polish
>vatra 'straw cinder' are borrowed... from Rumanian vatra 'stove',
>[this] again from Albanian (Geg votrë, votër with v-suggestion
>before Albanian ot- from *a:t-, perhaps Iranian loanword).
When I see a bunch of forms that look very similar in both Romanian
and Albanian, I think Dacian. At first I thought many forms in
Albanian looked like Zoroastrian or Persian words and that they were
borrowed into Albanian from Turkish which must have gotten them from
the (by then Moslem) Persians, but maybe it isn't necessary to go so
far afield.
>Best,
>Francesco
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
(5) Piotr wrote:
>On 2008-10-16 23:49, Francesco Brighenti wrote:
>
>> However, let me again quote Starostin & Lubotsky in this connection
>> because they propose a structurally similar (viz., root + *-ter-
>> suffix) etymology for Old Iranian a:tar, yet based on a different
IE
>> root, *h2weh1- 'to blow' -- see what happens by just inserting a *-
w-
>> into the previous root!(:^)):
>
>Francesco, what do you take me for? ;). There is a small but
interesting
>literature on <a:tar->, and I'm aware of it, since I've read it. The
>*-s- enlargement, even if its function isn't clear, is a respectable
>morpheme; we find it in *pah2-s- (vs. bare *pah2-), *h2weg-s- (vs.
>h2aug-) and in many other roots. Both *h2ah1- and *h2ah1s- are
actually
>attested as verbs, and no formal or semantic prestidigitation is
>required to account for the meaning of *h2ah1-t(o)r- as, say, 'altar
>fire'; there are also well-known derivatives of *h2ah1s- meaning
>'fire-altar', 'hearth', 'ashes', 'star' (not to mention other hot or
>glowing things). The derivation from *h2weh1-, as you certainly
realise,
>can't be taken seriously, but the one I cited is entirely kosher;
even
>LIV recognises h2ah1- as the probable base of <a:tar->.
So you are with me so far :-)
>http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/28889
I have read large random chunks of cybalist, but I'll go back and
check on this.
>Piotr
>-------------------
(6)
>Rick McAllister wrote:
>Are you (raucousd) trying to say that
>Easter and Ostara are from a compound of os- + atar- (vel sim)?
>Something like "God fire, God hearth"?
It never crossed my mind. I'm basically quoting G&I plus Mallory &
Adams and I'm fairly sure it never crossed their minds either. A
form like Easter based on *aster, looks like breaking, a very common
feature of Anglo-Saxon vowels.
Were you thinking that it might be a form of the element *Hons (H
being a laryngeal here), which is a word that means `a god' and
appears as a prefix (Ha-) in Hittite and a suffix such as -una, -unos
in Latin, Celtic, Skt, etc, in names of various gods. This is a
reconstruction obviously, I'm not sure of the source, though there
are plenty of forms.
--------------------------------------------
(7) [about Manu]
Francesco wrote:
>--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "raucousd" <raucousd@...> wrote:
>
>> Manu is the father of everyone in Avestan...
>
>This was presumably so, although the term is preserved in Avestan
>only in the compound proper name Manus^c^ithra 'of the race of
>Manu', which occurs only once in Yt. 13.131.
The myths about Manu also confirm this, that he is the father or
source of the children Mashya and Mashyana, and they are the parents
of everyone, (Bundahisn, Ch. 3, part 15, equated to Gaya Maratan).
Also there is a list of the geneaology of some of the clans in India,
and each of them is headed by Manu. These lists were published in an
issue of JIES (Vol. 6, p. 77ff, article by R. Morton Smith, the
Indian Sennachy. They are Kinglists in the Puranas.) I think the
issue here is that both Yama and Manu, or related forms are general
to the IE, but Yama takes precedence in Skt. while Manu takes
precedence in Avestan. Later Manu becomes more important in India,
at the time of the Puranas. I think this might show Zoroastrian
influence (probably not a popular idea with the OIT people). However
it is only fair to point out that lots of god(desse)s are
the "ancestor of everybody" in IE myths, and also there are so many
myths in the later Indian literature that anyone could probably argue
anything and find a reference for it.
>> ...and also the ancestor of some of the clans (Brahminical and
>> Kshatrya, I believe) among the Sanskrit speakers.
>
>In the RV manu means 'man, mankind' in general. The ancestral Indo-
>Iranian form, having the same meaning as in the RV, must have been
>*manu too.
>
>> I think this is because some aspect of Zoroastrianism (I am
>> ignoring its various forms) has been borrowed into India.
>
>No, *manu is a common Indo-Iranian word, and its semantics too.
>
>> Mannus also appears as the ancestor of the Germanic people, but
>> only in the reference in Tacitus. Manes (Di Manes) are considered
>> the ancestors (or honored dead) among the Romans where they appear
>> on countless votive altars.
>
>Proto-Germanic *manna is cognate to Proto-Indo-Iranian *manu, and
>both derive from PIE *man-/mon- 'man', but is Latin Ma:ne:s likewise
>derived from this root? I don't think so (there's a long /a/ in the
>Latin word!). Pokorny and others derive it from *meh2- (Pokorny:
>*ma:-) 'good', whence Di: Ma:ne:s 'good gods'.
Mania is the Roman "grandmother of ghosts" the sense here being that
seeing ghosts drives people insane (manic). Most people love their
grandmothers, but she's not nice. I think translating Di Manes
as "good gods" is a bit of a polite expression for what some people
might consider frightening. I promise to be more careful with vowel
length though
>Regards,
>Francesco
-----------------------------
(8) [about Assurs]
Francesco wrote:
>--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "raucousd" <raucousd@...> wrote:
>
>> Noticeable among Semitic gods are the forms Assur, the god of the
>> Assyrians (that's why they were called Assyrians, he was their
>> chief god).
>
>I believe the endlessly repeated, but most dubious linguistic
>connection Assyrian A$$ur :: OIA asura, O.Ir. ahura has been
>discussed several times on the cybalist in the past, but I will, at
>any rate, spend a few words to criticize it, provided that I've
>never done so here before.
Please be more specific about "linguistic connection". As far as I
know everyone (of those who argue that there is a connection) argues
that it's a borrowing but there are too many forms of Semitic Assur
type gods for them all to be a coincidence. pp. 591-2 G&I, lists
various IE *Hastar gods.
Hebrew: Asherah, "It is the presence of possibly cognate words in
other Semetic languages, where goddesses are frequently understood to
be denoted that has raised interesting questions..." Roughly they
offer various forms such as atr, or asher, with many diacritics and
meaning 'shining', 'happy' `sacred place' and various other (vague)
possibilities. p. 99, DDD.
Assyria: Assur major national god, etym. unknown. The argument
that "no one knows where this came from, but it couldn't possibly be
a borrowing" is not a good argument. That's my opinion. (p. 772n
G&I argue that Assur was borrowed into Semitic from IE)
Phoenician (Ugaritic): Astarte "etym. obscure, prob. a name of the
planet Venus", p. 109 DDD.
Akkadian: Ishtar, name written with a star sign, deified planet Venus.
Egypt: Isis, see also Osiris. She is associated with the star Sirius,
however she is associated with all sorts of things and might be
considered a grain goddess, among other things.
Egypt, Ast, = Pleiades orig Sirius (stars)
DDD is the Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible ed. by Karel
van der Toorn, et al., William B. Eerdmans Publ. Co., Grand Rapids,
Michigan, 1999.
New question: Why does everyone reconstruct the Germanic form for As-
Aesir as *ansu, with an -n-. It appears in only one or two sources
where it looks like an epenthetic -n- in Germanic, of which there are
reportedly many (and they are often lost with compensating vowel
lengthening). The rest of the forms (except the Latin/Germanic form
anses- which I can't take too seriously) were reconstructed by Grimm
to show what form the word *would* have taken in various Germanic
languages, but they are not attested or they are not attested in that
form in those languages. Are you trying to argue that Aesir is not
cognate with I-I forms like asura/ahura? I think it is.
[snipped]
>Venetic ahsu- (= a:su-) 'cult effigy, cult figure'
**{oh boy, a Venetic form, I hadn't noticed that]
>= [Proto-]Germanic *ansuz- 'god, [Ase/Aæsir]', Old Icelandic a:ss-,
Runic
>a[n]suR-, Old English o:s- '[Ase/Aæsir]', Gothic-Latin anses-
>'demigods'.
>
>Note [on] the inanimate suffix -ur-: Old Indic asura-, Avestan ahura-
>'ruler, lord' :: [Greek] Illyrioi [ill-ur-ioi] 'Illyrians' [etc.]."
>
>Hope this is of some help,
>Francesco
>--------------------------------------------
(9) [Conclusion]
Francesco wrote:
>Atar is the word for sacred fire in Avestan, but it appears as the
>> demon Atri in Sanskrit.
>
>Shall we safely conclude the discussion on the (unrelatedness of) the
>terms a:tar (name of the Avestan fire-god) and atri (used only once
in
>the R.gveda as an epithet of the fire-god Agni) with assuming that
>O.Ir. a:tar < PIE *h2ah1-t(o)r- 'burner' and that OIA atri (< *at-
tri)
>< PIE *ed-t(o)r- 'devourer' (as in Lat. e:sor 'eater')?
Definitely not. It seems that you are saying that a form like *atar
appears demonized in Skt. as atra `devourer, demon' and
atrin 'devourer, demon' and that it only appears once as Atri
`devourer' an ephithet of Agni (forms given in message 2), but it
couldn't possibly be connected to Av. atar `sacred fire'. I very
much appreciate your references but I don't see why you have to give
two different reconstructed forms for sets of words which seem to
have cognate forms and the same meaning (taking into account that
they are demonized in some languages). I find that Mallory and Adams
also give an etym of *HxeHxtR (p. 202 EIEC) for Av. Atars `fire'
(with a gen. athro), and I'm not being too particular about their
diacritics, if you really want to know, I'll type them in, but I
think you can figure out what I'm referring to based on your own
sources.
My Recap: names of gods associated with fire and sun are indeed from
forms like *Haeus(os) and *(Ha)aeust(e)ro. These forms become the
usual word for a god, any god, and generally for some of the dominant
gods in Zoroastrian religion and related languages such as Avestan
and Persian, and also by some sort of religious or political
influence in some Germanic languages, notably in the Old Norse
mythology; in the opposite set of languages they are demonized.
Words of the form Devi are (or they become) the dominant gods of the
Sanskrit speakers and eventually the same shift is seen in some
widely separated language groups, namely Latin and possibly Celtic
languages; in the opposite set of languages they are demonized or at
least they lose status (Tyr is having a very bad time). A
corresponding pattern of demonization may possibly be seen in some
Semitic languages (relationship and cause arguable). The same
pattern of shift in status of gods seems to affect other sets of
gods, such as Agni. Taken all together, it is a fair hypothesis that
all of these gods were originally worshipped in *PIE. I originally
came into this discussion because of the issue of migration from Asia
to Scandinavia. I would argue that evidence of some sort of
migration can be seen in influence in religious matters brought to
Scandinavia from a Zoroastrian country, and I would guess that it was
brought in by Germanic speakers, whether Goths or "Danes" or someone
else. The impetus was political turmoil in the east, by which I
mean, more or less, wars in the Balkans.