Re: Asian Migration to Scandinavia

From: raucousd
Message: 60924
Date: 2008-10-16

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...>
wrote:

> Could you kindly further elaborate on these points? My received
> wisdom is that the deva/daiva vs. asura/Ahura(mazda) polarization
> only developed in religious cultures (Vedic, Zoroastrian)
descending
> from the common Indo-Iranian stock. Where do you find traces, and
> especially *linguistic* traces, of this polarization in other IE
> language groups, or in Semitic?
>
> Thanks and best regards,
> Francesco

I agree that the daeva vs. asura polarization developed in the Indo-
Iranian language group, but it seems to have spread sideways as you
might call it, into other languages (and there are other
possibilities).

As to the effect in the Germanic languages: Aesir is a general
plural word for the gods, and Ass or Os is a word for a god, any god,
as well as of certain specific gods such as Asa-Thor, a name of Thor.

Very noticeable among Latin gods are Jove and forms of deus. Among
the celtic gods, names like Deva and dia are found, Deva on a CIL
inscription from Spain, and dia is a form in Gaelic, in the Carmina
Gadelica. There are others of these given in the list on the PIEr
Wik page.

Another problem is that many authors including Benveniste and Max
Muller have argued that Deos Patri was the top god of the *PIE, but
there is no evidence of this in most of the IE languages (Sanskrit,
Greek, Latin and Illyrian are the only ones). Actually deos patri is
the name by which the emperors, esp. Augustus Caesar wished to be
addressed, apparently because they wished to be identified with
Jupiter (Oxford Latin Dictionary calls it "flattery"). There is no
such deity in the Germanic languages, where Odin is the top god at
least in ON myth. Tyr, who has been identified as a cognate of deus,
is the one-armed god of broken promises. Benveniste has tried to
explain away the absence of Deos Patri in many IE languages (it was
his argument anyway, though he was not the first to make it), by
arguing that some cultures did not have a concept of a father, or
that they didn't have or didn't use the cognate form of *patri, using
instead *atta, however *patri is the usual cognate form for "father"
in all of the IE languages except perhaps Hittite.

There are other pairs beside Devas and Ashuras who show a similar
pattern of demonization and they usually fall across the same
language groups. For example Atar is the word for sacred fire in
Avestan, but it appears as the demon Atri in Sanskrit. This is
identified with the Old Saxon and Anglo Saxon forms of Ostara and
Easter, more or less. In Sanskrit, Agni replaces Atar as a god of
fire (and is later replaced by Ganesha, as the first god invoked at
any ceremony or at the beginning of any new undertaking). Although
forms of igne meaning fire are seen in many IE languages it isn't
usually an object. The only actual Roman (pagan) form is Anna
Perenna, Perennial Fire which was relit at the spring equinox (see
also Santa Ana winds). It's christianized as St. Agnes in Roman
Catholicism religion, and in the RCC liturgy the Agnus Dei is an
invocation that appears at the beginning of the address to the gods,
that is, after the priests turn away from the congregation.

Another pair that seems to shift is Yama and Manu. Both are seen
positively by the IE but Yama (and Yami) are the parents of everyone
in Sanskrit whereas Manu is the father of everyone in Avestan and
also the ancestor of some of the clans (Brahminical and Kshaetra, I
believe) among the Sanskrit speakers. I think this is because some
aspect of Zoroastrianism (I am ignoring its various forms) has been
borrowed into India. Mannus also appears as the ancestor of the
Germanic people, but only in the reference in Tacitus. Manes (Di
Manes) are considered the ancestors (or honored dead) among the
Romans where they appear on countless votive altars.

Some gods do not appear to be demonized between the Avestan and
Sanskrit speakers. Sk. Bhaga and Av. baga are both positive deities,
and Sk. Sarasvati (presumably the Sarasvati river which runs into the
Indus river) and Av. Haurvatat are considered cognates and they are
both goddesses of knowledge and water. Sarasvati does not seem to
have direct cognates among other IE languages, though rivers are
deified everywhere. Bhagas show up as Pax in Latin, clearly positive.

In my opinion, another affect of Zoroastrianism on Germanic
languages, specifically Old Norse myth was the
apocalytic/eschatological plot in Ragnarok (and I think also in the
Gesta Danorum). This corresponds to Zarathustra's argument that some
day good and evil would duke it out and the winner would win, etc.
Much has been made of this by Christians since some sort of belief in
end times is found in Christian belief, but it is noticeably missing
in the rest of the Indo-European languages.

Semitic Languages: Finally, there are some correspondences between
the Semitic languages and the Indo-European languages. It might seem
off topic to discuss Semitic deities on this list but (begging the
moderator's indulgence), I think it's very important in this case.
(Note: I do not know Semitic languages, and even when I am quoting
experts, I can not confirm or disprove what they say).

A group of deities have long been identified as related (I suppose
that means cognate) in the Semitic languages including Ishtar, Isis,
Astoreth, etc. which are thought to be related to the Asura/Aesir
deities of the IE. Other Semitic gods include Assur, Asherah, and (a
person) Esther. These gods all have names connected to the sun,
stars or hearth fires. As you go further south, people tend to
worship these gods as the planet Venus which gives no heat (e.g. Isis
in Egypt), while in the north, people worship hearthfires or the sun
in spring which brings heat.

I don't know of any author who argues that the Semitic gods are
cognate with the IE gods, but rather they assume a borrowing. It is
not clear which way they were borrowed. Most authors have argued
that the borrowings went from Semitic languages to the Indo-European
languages, based mainly on the assumption that the Semitic
languages/religions were "older" and were perhaps "dominant"
(culturally or militarily), but there are problems with the timelines
for that argument. Gamkrelidze and Ivanov have argued that since the
IE names have meaning in the IE languages and have cognates across
the IE languages, that the borrowing must go the other way
specifically for Assur. As far as I know they are the only actual
linguists who argue this (or in fact make any sort of a linguistic
argument on this topic).

Noticeable among Semitic gods are the forms Assur, the god of the
Assyrians (that's why they were called Assyrians, he was their chief
god). Asherah is a goddess mentioned in the Old Testament as being
thrown out of the temples. I believe G&I argue that Assur must have
been borrowed into Assyrian religion at the time that the Kassites
(Cassites) ruled Babylon. Asherah is one of the goddesses who was
general to the Hebrew speakers when they were (still) polytheists,
and much speculation has been made of the possible development toward
monotheism or a development toward a monotheistic patriarchal
religion or a development away from a substrate (goddess) religion
which was assumed to exist. Did I say that most of the arguments
that have been made about *any* aspect of IE religion seem to have a
religious or political agenda? The development of monotheism among
Hebrew speakers has been attributed to Zoroastrian influence (the
Pharisees are identified with Persian influence, not that they *were*
Persians, but apparently they were among the people who had been
living in Babylon, and who returned to Jerusalem, setting up the
temple), however the monotheistic Jews do not follow the Asura side
of the Ashura vs. Devi conflict, instead they come out on the
opposite side. They seem to have been quite hostile to the deities
that *might* be associated with the Persians, namely Asherah.
Whatever reason the Persians may have had for elevating asuras (Ahura
Mazda), I suspect the Jews hated the (ancient) Assyrians.

This is a very diffuse argument because it covers so broad an area,
but I think, taking it all together it shows why there are some
differences between the deities and myths of some of the different IE
languages. This gives a better picture of the specifically *Proto*-
IE deities and myths as a whole.

RaucousD