Re: Veneti (Was Re: Belgs)

--- On Wed, 10/15/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

From: tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
Subject: [tied] Veneti (Was Re: Belgs)
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 6:19 AM






> > The problem is that not only the Wenet- name, but several river
> > names are identical too (in the Wenet- areas around Sambia and on
> > the Adria). That only happens if the language of those who lived
> > on the rivers, at least those who sailed of the rivers, were the
> > same.
>
> GK: Independently of Shchukin's "amber road" theory.Qu.: (1)
> What is the correlation between the "vent" et sim. roots (A) and
> these identical river names (B)? Is it possible that (A)
> represents a process different from {B)?

(A) The names are similar.
(B) The names are similar.
Everything is possible, of course, but to my knowledge the sets of Old
European names of Krahe are supposedly all similar and just that
within the group; no criterion has been found to distinguish them
geographically or other-group- wise.
I've ordered the book from the library, BTW.

****GK: Footnote. The tribal name "Viatichi" could be a Venetic name ["viat" from the earlier "vent"] In the Kyivan primary chronicle they are named after a "brother" originating in Poland ["ot lyakhov"] But here too the archaeology is tenuous, except on the vague Shchukin "Neronian" grounds.****

> (2) With respect to some points of your discussion with Arnaud. I
> am reminded that the presence of certain appellatives actually
> represents enclaves within the territory of other populations.

You do know 'appellatives' means "non-names" (non-topo-, ethno- etc
-nyms) in placename research?

****GK: I'm still a slave to my old 1949 Webster's, where it has the permissible sense of "name". Butif this is antiquated I'll try to relent (:=)).****

> For instance in the area of West Ukraine populated by "Croats" in
> the early middle ages there are a number of "Pecheneg" toponyms
> representing infiltrations. Earlier "Dulebi" is interpreted in the
> same way. Many other examples could be given. Is it possible that
> "vent" et sim. represent similar infiltrations? ****
>
Definitely yes.
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/8238
(at the bottom)
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/8347
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/8358
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/8361
(note the 'a-grade', which I suspect is Venetic)
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/8398
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/8430
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/15811

It is taken as given in toponymic research that hydronyms are the oldest.

A scenario in which the Veneti were primarily sea- and river-bound
(sea peoples?) would explain why they managed to name so many rivers
(and Danish islands too, BTW, -ant- and -is- are Venetic toponymic
suffixes, -ind-/-und- are Danish island suffixes, and -inthos and
-issos are 'Anatolian' toponymic suffixes in Greece).

Torsten

****GK: The primary Veneti who infiltrated other peoples (and then adopted their languages? Celtic, Italic, "Illyrian", etc., while occasionally changing these host peoples'"ethnic designation": hence the Veneti of France ,Italy, Poland) must have existed at a very early time. I don't remember if "vent" appears in old references (Egyptian or others) to "sea-peoples" Would you say that they emerged at a time when PIE was still largely undifferentiated, as "Old European"? Or..?****