Re: long, flat, full

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud@...>
wrote:

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
>
> > ============
> > > A ST root cognate to PAA *p_l = PIE *p_l should be *p_y
> > > otherwise, I consider it does not work.
>
> > Should I infer from that that if a reconstructed ST root doesn't
> > follow the rule you have set up, it is highly dubious?
> ============
> Yes,
> This rule works for many words, full, flat, shoulder, etc.

I've seen your reconstructions for full and flat. In one of them
there's no trace in ST of the /y/ you posit in the data. I assume you
have a reconstruction for 'shoulder'. Can I see it? What are the other
ones (the etc part)?

> Words that do not follow this rule are highly dubious from _my_
> point of view.

I thought as much.

> If you have something else to propose, please do.
> Arnaud
> ============

Actually I've done that already: the ST *pl- "full" and "flat" roots
were loaned into various AA and IE and other languages as part of a
'Kulturkugel', a set of 'Wörter und Sachen' connected with the
fundamentals of agriculture, part of the interconnected
theological/practical set of words on the skeleton of
*(a)p/bh-r/l-
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/Op.html
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/Opr.html
which is why it is present in so many language families (the Peter
Bellwood hypothesis).

> Edwin G. Pulleyblank
> Outline of Classical Chinese Grammar, pp 10-11
> ...
> (b) Alternation between Middle Chinese voiceless and voiced initials
> is often found in verbs with transitive and intransitive or neuter
> meaning respectively, e.g., jiàn .. (EMC kenh) 'see,' also read xiàn
> (EMC Genh < *g-) 'appear' (now written .. in this meaning); zhu ..,
> .. (EMC tc,uawk) 'to attach, enjoin,' shu .. (EMC dz,uawk) 'be
> attached, belong.' This probably reflects a prefix *a-, cognate to
> Tibetan ha-c^hun^ and Burmese a(?) (Pulleyblank 1973a, 1989)
> ========
> This prefix *a is most probably Gh- a voiced velar in Tibetan.
> I'm not sure this prefix is the cause of voicedness in Chinese,
> Another possibility is a nasal N-
>
> And your citations are a good example of what not to do :
> jiàn .. (EMC kenh) 'see,' hence Initial is velar stop
> xiàn (EMC Genh < *g-) 'appear' : hence velar fricative
> Two parameters change : voice + fashion.
>
> With that kind of method, theos is ST ha + dyew.
> No problem, everything works.
> Arnaud
> ========

If you want to do that, posit a prefix for PIE.
I'd say that match is too good semantically to give up a rule that
works elsewhere just because a mismatch in one feature.

>
> > Well, then the master was not very good and the disciple does not
> > look like an improvement.
> > Is there anything in ST studies we should remember Benedict for ?
> >
> =========
> >From Matisoff's Preface in his
> >Handbook of Proto-Tibeto-Burman
> >While there is certainly room for tinkering with a few details of
> >Benedict's reconstructive scheme for Proto-Tibeto-Burman (PTB), the
> >major features of the system itself remain basically unassailable.
> ==========
> I'm afraid I don't share this optimism !
> I'm not even convinced Tibetan and Burmese are close relatives.
> You never find a clean cognate.
> Arnaud
> =======
>
> A better
> understanding of the variational processes at work in TB and ST
> word-families has enabled us to decide more accurately whether sets
> of forms that bear partial phonosemantic resemblances to each other
> are really variants of the same etymon or etymologically
> independent.
> ============
> Note the words : variational, partial, resemblance, variant.
> I'm afraid this claim is not supported.
> Everything works in Matisoff 's "modelization".
> Arnaud
> ==========

Could you be more specific as to what part of this 'better
understanding' you disapprove of?

> On the Chinese side, the successors to Karlgren have made profound
> changes in the reconstructive scheme for Old Chinese, and it is no
> exaggeration to say that the field of historical Sinology is now
> going through a period of ferment. Still, almost all of STC's
> suggested Chinese comparanda for PTB etyma have gone unchallenged.'
> Torsten
> ==========
> More changes in OC are predictable !
> Arnaud
> ==========

Make them, then.


Torsten