>
> The best solution I can see to the problem of the Germanic doublets
> in hn-/kn- (and hl-/kl-, hr-/kr-) is that they are loans from a
> substrate which had doublets kn-/gn- (and kl-/gl-, kr-/hr-) as we
> see in many Western Romance words, also in this. They might
> ultimately be loans from something else (eg. Vennemann's Vasconian
> and Semitidic Atlantic)
> Torsten
> Hi Torsten,
>
> I've probably been too elliptical in jumping over steps in my
arguments since they seemed obvious, but to lay this matter to rest:
>
> 1. Agreeing with Trask - i.e. that -et is a Gascon suffix - as cited
by V. on p434 of Vasconica
>
> 2. Canif - V says that the fact that you don't get chanif, shows
that this is a late borrowing into French. If you look at phonological
dating (e.g. Gaston Zink), all this means is that it would be borrowed
after 500AD into Centre d'oil or no particular date for Picard (since
k is preserved and not palatalised, hence this is a non-point. It
doesn't resolve the question either way between a loan from Germanic
or Basque. But it does overturn V's point about it being a late loan
into French.
True. The friendly interpretation is that he intends to say central
French (Gascon etc also has no c > ch). But no matter.
> 3. However, and where I take issue with you - V answers the question
as to why this word should come from Basque by claiming: a) there is
directional flow of cultural objects from S to N [You claim that this
is a misreading of V. but he says this entirely explicitly in the
Abstract (point 1 in para 2). b) Even more fancifully, he claims that
the Basque Country may be kind of Mediaeval Sheffield with a
world-wide reputation for fine cutlery. Now one Basque town did get an
exclusive royal charter for steelmaking in 1262, but we're agreed that
any loan would have been earlier, so this is way too late for his
Basque>OFr>OE route.
>
> Hence a) since we all seem to agree that his dates are too late, we
have to assume that despite all the turbulence and lack of a viable
international trading system during the 8th-10th centuries (other than
perhaps one run by the Jews), the Basques are running a international
knife business. (Edo Nyland strikes again!) b) if the whole world is
killing each other with Basque knives in the 8th-9th centuries, why
doesn't Portuguese use the Basque word rather than a Gascon loan.
Point taken. I wasn't concentrating on that part.
> c) Just try saying 'knif" in a French accent - e.g. watch the French
knight in Monty Python & the Holy Grail
>
>
I don't have to. Cf. Knut > Canute. And most Anglophones will say eg.
K&nesset, when confronted with a foreign kn-
Now as for who were into cutlery at an early time, I been there already:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59340
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59341
This is from a text which seems to come from some sort of disctionary,
which was sent to me by Ishinan:
'Ugaritic: qt_t_ = to cut
Text KTU 1.114, is entirely devoted to a banquet given by Ilu in his
palace. Ilu is sacrificing in his house, giving a banquet in his
palace. The text appears to be a description of the drinking society
of Ilu an institution which has its counterpart on earth. Ilu invites
all he gods for the carving. He encourages them to eat, and to drink
wine until satiety, to drink must unto drunkenness. The more important
guests appear to be seated at the table, whereas others have to be
content with a humble place under the table. The moon-god Yarikhu puts
down the "saddle-meat" presumably before every deity. He tears it out
[qt_t_] like a dog. He throws some pieces of bread to the miserable
gods under the table, that is, to those he knows. `Athtartu and
`Anartu pity the god who is passed over and feed hinm demonstratively
the best pieces of meat, a haunch and a shoulder.'
I am perhaps overinterpreting here, but perhaps the strange NW
European words for "inferior meat, innards" belong here:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/34933
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46174
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46176
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46179
Also, note that some of the oldest senses (I think) are "fish knife"
and "pruning knife" (consistent with de Vries' claim that the hn-,
gn-, kn- etc words have to do with the 'betrieb des niederwaldes').
That would be consistent with a people living on water's edge. Note
also that the word became *the* word for "knife" in the sea-oriented
cultures of England and Scandinavia.
To get back to the subject, I'm sure your points about Vennemann's
claims are true, but since I've modified his etymology to my own
needs, would you mind attacking that version instead? I think I can
defend that much better.
Torsten