Re: More on Italian briga, brigare, and brigante

From: tgpedersen
Message: 60087
Date: 2008-09-17

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
>
> > Then there are these:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brig
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantine
> >
> > ...
> > So we could imagine it was a trading seafaring people, a kind of
> > early Hanse, which took to piracy when it fell on hard times?
>
> The term brigantine has nothing to do with the ancient Brigantes.
>
>
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=b&p=18
> "brigantine -- 'small two-masted ship', 1525, from M.Fr. brigandin,
> from It. brigantino..."
>
> It. brigantino is first attested in the 14th century, namely, two
> centuries earlier than Eng. brigantine. The It. term may have
> derived either directly from the verb brigare (in its secondarily
> evolved meaning as 'to fight') or indirectly from its substantived
> participle brigante (in its secondarily evolved meaning
> as 'fighter').
>
> Eng. brig is a diminutive form of brigantine.

Yes, that's what the dictionaries say.
But look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_rig
Bark and brig are principally square-rigged.
Barkentine and brigantine are hybrid square-rigged and fore-and-aft
rigged.
So it would seem those endings mean something like "-like", and that
'brigantine' is derived from 'brig', not the other way round.

The square rig is considered to be a northern thing.
http://www.squarerigsailing.com/

Further a frigate is square-rigged too;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigate
the word is of unknown origin
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-frigate.html

So, *bhrig-, with bh > b and bh > f in different dialects (and is
'bark' another version, from another dialect)?

As an example of the standard of the etymology of ship types
http://wapedia.mobi/en/schooner
'A schooner (pronounced /ˈsku:n&/) is a type of sailing vessel
characterized by the use of fore-and-aft sails on two or more masts.
Schooners were first used by the Dutch in the 16th or 17th century,
and further developed in North America from the early 18th century
onwards.'
'According to the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica, the first ship called
a schooner was built by builder Andrew Robinson and launched in 1713
from Gloucester, Massachusetts. Legend has it that the name schooner
was the result of a spectator exclaiming "Oh how she scoons", scoon
being a Scots word meaning to skip or skim over the water. Robinson
replied, "A schooner let her be." [1] According to Walter William
Skeat, the term schooner comes from the word scoon, while the sch
spelling comes from the later adoption of the Dutch and German spellings.'

Which makes one wonder what the Dutch called their schooners, before
the Americans gave it a Scots name and spelled in the Dutch fashion?

The Scots verb 'scoon' is related to that in Du. schuit (and related
to 'shoot')
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuit
Fri. skût
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%BBte
Da. skude
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skude
Sw. skuta
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skuta

As can be seen in
Files >
Maps from Udolph >
Placenames untouched by Grimm, maps 08-12, 16 >
10skeut.jpg
the river names related to *sku(n)t- (most likely Old European, thus
Venetic) are situated at portage sites of major rivers.


Torsten