Re: Vandals

--- On Wed, 8/27/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> > > >
> > > > > > > > They [GK: the Vandals] spoke an East Germanic
> > > > > > > > language, so they were not LINGUISTICALLY Veneti,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nope. The only reason their language, of which we know
> > > > > > > nothing, is classed as East Germanic, is that they
> > > > > > > lived in the eastern part of the later Germania.
> > > > >
> > > > > GK: What is missing in the wikipedia article on the Vandals
> > > > is the data from Pliny and Tacitus. According to the former
> > > > (NH IV.99) the "Vandili" were a group of Germanic tribes
> > > > "quorum pars Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini, Gutones".
> > > > According to the latter (Germania, 2), the Germani celebrated
> > > > the "Vandalios" as their own in "carminibus antiquis", and
> > > > Tacitus concluded that the designation (Vandilii/Vandalii)
> > > > was among the "vera et antiqua" Germanic "nomina". As we
> > > > know, Tacitus also made a clear distinction between Vandals
> > > > and Venedi.
> > >
> > > GK: So that, in the first c. CE, not only were the non-Germanic
> > > Venedi something different from Vandali (for Tacitus no less
> > > than Pliny), but the term "Vandali" was considered both
> > > Germanic and ancient.
> >
> > By some.
> >
> > GK: By all, if we are to believe Tacitus rather than Torsten.
>
> By some. This is what Tacitus says:
> 'Quidam autem, ut in licentia vetustatis, ... affirmant; eaque vera
> et antiqua nomina [esse]'
>
> "Some, with the freedom of conjecture permitted by antiquity, assert
> that ..., and that these [Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii] are
> genuine old names"
>
> GK: All Germanics believe that (a) Marsi, Gambrivii etc.. are
> genuine old names

I don't know why you keep repeating that.

****GK: Because I am relying on Tacitus rathen than on Torsten's Snorrist ideology.****

Forget the semicolon before
'eaque vera et antiqua nomina [esse]', it is not original, and the
phrase itself is an accusative with infinitive, which means it is a
quoted statement; so that the statement that Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi,
Vandilii are genuine old names is not a fact, but the opinion of
'quidam', ie. "some".

> and (b) all believe that they are Germanic names.

Nope. Not in Tacitus' text.

****GK: Precisely in Tacitus' text. He is reporting what Germanics are saying about terms both they and he believe to be Germanic.****

> That is the obvious implication of "licentia vetustatis". It is
> because Marsi etc.. are both old and Germanic that "some" reject
> the "Mannus as only son of Tuisco" for the "Tuisco had many sons"
> theory. That is what Tacitus is saying. Because all accept that
> Marsi etc. are ancient Germanic names found in the old songs, some
> proceed to revise the "Mannus as only son of Tuisco" theory. That
> is the "licentia" allowed them by the "vetustas" of these terms. We
> may also surmise that these names were listed in the "Mannus only"
> view among the descendant tribes. As part of either "proximi
> Oceano", or "medii", or "ceteri". So the difference between "some"
> and "others", according to Tacitus, is merely one of genealogical
> shifts, and has nothing to do with late inclusions into Germania,or
> language changes. They were all there in the old songs.****

They might be old,

****GK: As I "keep repeating" after Tacitus and his informants.****

but that doesn't make them Germanic.

****GK: Tacitus and his informants believed them to be so.****

Place names
etc which do not make sense in the language of those who live there
are perceived by them as 'old', in contrast to those in their own
language which are made up of recognizable elements.

****GK: Like "Tuisco" and "Mannus"? (:=))) ****

Cf. the end of Snorri's prologue,

****GK: Of course. "Mais puisque je vous disais que je n'en etais pas,...de Port Royal" (cf. Pascal)

It is obvious to Snorri and everyone else who used their heads at his
time

****GK: Yawn.... Still flogging that horse... Hopeless, totally and irredemiably.****

that the Celtic etc district and place names in England are not
from the language family he saw in the corresponding place names in
Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and partly England. Similarly, the
fact that some Germani in Tacitus' time saw the names of the Marsi,
Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii as genuine old names does not mean that
they are genuine old Germanic names,

****GK: Tacitus and the Germans of 98 CE thought they were. Which is all that matters in the context we are discussing.****

in fact they would probably not
have seen them as such since they don't have a Germanic etymology.

****GK: Neither Tacitus nor his informants knew that. Well, another thing the Germans of Tacitus' time certainly didn't know is that their language came to them from the Aesirs of Asgard. Their old songs (their only source of ancient history) didn't tell them that, nor any more recent recollections [like from the mid-first c. BCE(:=))).] Neither Tacitus nor the Germans of his time (including both "some" and "others") were Snorrists (:=))) tsk..tsk...****