Re: Vandals

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 8/26/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> > > >
> > > > > > > > They [GK: the Vandals] spoke an East Germanic
> > > > > > > > language, so they were not LINGUISTICALLY Veneti,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nope. The only reason their language, of which we know
> > > > > > > nothing, is classed as East Germanic, is that they
> > > > > > > lived in the eastern part of the later Germania.
> > > > >
> > > > > GK: What is missing in the wikipedia article on the Vandals
> > > > is the data from Pliny and Tacitus. According to the former
> > > > (NH IV.99) the "Vandili" were a group of Germanic tribes
> > > > "quorum pars Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini, Gutones".
> > > > According to the latter (Germania, 2), the Germani celebrated
> > > > the "Vandalios" as their own in "carminibus antiquis", and
> > > > Tacitus concluded that the designation (Vandilii/Vandalii)
> > > > was among the "vera et antiqua" Germanic "nomina". As we
> > > > know, Tacitus also made a clear distinction between Vandals
> > > > and Venedi.
> > >
> > > GK: So that, in the first c. CE, not only were the non-Germanic
> > > Venedi something different from Vandali (for Tacitus no less
> > > than Pliny), but the term "Vandali" was considered both
> > > Germanic and ancient.
> >
> > By some.
> >
> > GK: By all, if we are to believe Tacitus rather than Torsten.
>
> By some. This is what Tacitus says:
> 'Quidam autem, ut in licentia vetustatis, ... affirmant; eaque vera
> et antiqua nomina [esse]'
>
> "Some, with the freedom of conjecture permitted by antiquity, assert
> that ..., and that these [Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii] are
> genuine old names"
>
> ****GK: All Germanics believe that (a) Marsi, Gambrivii etc.. are
> genuine old names

I don't know why you keep repeating that. Forget the semicolon before
'eaque vera et antiqua nomina [esse]', it is not original, and the
phrase itself is an accusative with infinitive, which means it is a
quoted statement; so that the statement that Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi,
Vandilii are genuine old names is not a fact, but the opinion of
'quidam', ie. "some".

> and (b) all believe that they are Germanic names.

Nope. Not in Tacitus' text.

> That is the obvious implication of "licentia vetustatis". It is
> because Marsi etc.. are both old and Germanic that "some" reject
> the "Mannus as only son of Tuisco" for the "Tuisco had many sons"
> theory. That is what Tacitus is saying. Because all accept that
> Marsi etc. are ancient Germanic names found in the old songs, some
> proceed to revise the "Mannus as only son of Tuisco" theory. That
> is the "licentia" allowed them by the "vetustas" of these terms. We
> may also surmise that these names were listed in the "Mannus only"
> view among the descendant tribes. As part of either "proximi
> Oceano", or "medii", or "ceteri". So the difference between "some"
> and "others", according to Tacitus, is merely one of genealogical
> shifts, and has nothing to do with late inclusions into Germania,or
> language changes. They were all there in the old songs.****

They might be old, but that doesn't make them Germanic. Place names
etc which do not make sense in the language of those who live there
are perceived by them as 'old', in contrast to those in their own
language which are made up of recognizable elements.

Cf. the end of Snorri's prologue, where gets into place name research
http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/prologue.html
'Odin kept by him the son called Yngvi, who was king of Sweden after
him, and from him have come the families known as Ynglingar. The Æsir
and some of their sons married with the women of the lands they
settled, and their families became so numerous in Germany and thence
over the north that their language, that of the men of Asia, became
the language proper to all these countries. From the fact that their
genealogies are written down, men suppose that these names came along
with this language, and that it was brought here to the north of the
world, to Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Germany, by the Æsir. In
England, however, there are ancient district and place names which
must be understood as deriving from a different language.'

It is obvious to Snorri and everyone else who used their heads at his
time that the Celtic etc district and place names in England are not
from the language family he saw in the corresponding place names in
Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and partly England. Similarly, the
fact that some Germani in Tacitus' time saw the names of the Marsi,
Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii as genuine old names does not mean that
they are genuine old Germanic names, in fact they would probably not
have seen them as such since they don't have a Germanic etymology.


Torsten