--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
> --- On Sun, 8/24/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
>
> > > > They [GK: the Vandals] spoke an East Germanic language, so
> > > > they were not LINGUISTICALLY Veneti,
> > >
> > > Nope. The only reason their language, of which we know nothing,
> > > is classed as East Germanic, is that they lived in the eastern
> > > part of the later Germania.
>
> ****GK: What is missing in the wikipedia article on the Vandals is
the data from Pliny and Tacitus. According to the former (NH IV.99)
the "Vandili" were a group of Germanic tribes "quorum pars
Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini, Gutones". According to the latter
(Germania, 2), the Germani celebrated the "Vandalios" as their own in
"carminibus antiquis", and Tacitus concluded that the designation
(Vandilii/Vandalii) was among the "vera et antiqua" Germanic "nomina".
As we know, Tacitus also made a clear distinction between Vandals and
Venedi.****
>
That's not quite accurate.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/g01000.htm
'Celebrant carminibus antiquis (quod unum apud illos memoriae et
annalium genus est) Tuisconem deum terra editum, et filium Mannum,
originem gentis conditoresque. Manno tres filios assignant, e quorum
nominibus proximi Oceano Ingaevones, medii Hermiones, ceteri
Istaevones vocentur. Quidam autem, ut in licentia vetustatis, plures
deo ortos pluresque gentis appellationes, Marsos, Gambrivios, Suevos,
Vandalios, affirmant; eaque vera et antiqua nomina. Ceterum Germaniae
vocabulum recens et nuper additum; quoniam, qui primi Rhenum
transgressi Gallos expulerint, ac nunc Tungri, tunc Germani vocati
sint: ita nationis nomen, non gentis evaluisse paulatim, ut omnes
primum a victore ob metum, mox a se ipsis invento nomine Germani
vocarentur.'
'In their ancient songs, their only way of remembering or recording
the past, they celebrate an earth-born god, Tuisco, and his son
Mannus, as the origin of their race, as their founders. To Mannus they
assign three sons, from whose names, they say, the coast tribes are
called Ingævones; those of the interior, Herminones; all the rest,
Istævones. Some, with the freedom of conjecture permitted by
antiquity, assert that the god had several descendants, and the nation
several appellations, as Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii, and that
these are genuine old names. The name Germany, on the other hand, they
say, is modern and newly introduced, from the fact that the tribes
which first crossed the Rhine and drove out the Gauls, and are now
called Tungrians, were then called Germans. Thus what was the name of
a tribe, and not of a race, gradually prevailed, till all called
themselves by this self-invented name of Germans, which the conquerors
had first employed to inspire terror.'
In other words, there are two schools of thought among the Germani.
According to one, the 'Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii' are not part
of the Germani, according to the other, they are. We might call them
Germania Parva and Germania Magna. That fits my contention that all
present Germanic languages descend from Przeworsk-talk, those other
tribes would have spoken para-Germanic, or something even further afield.
Torsten