--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Michal Milewski <milewski@...> wrote:
>
> tgpedersen wrote:
> > I can't find the subclades Ia and Ib in the reference you provided.
> > Is it possible that you mean instead I1 and I2?
> >
> Yes, I am very sorry for this mistake.
There, there, now, now, don't worry. I do it all the time ;-)
Here is my version.
I realized last night this is what might have happened.
I felt sick.
When the Przeworsk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przeworsk_culture
and Zarubintsy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture
cultures made contact, they mixed, and a (more or less forced)
division of labor arose: Slavic (from Zarubintzy) speaking farmers,
Germanic (from Przeworsk) speaking predators/rulers. A number of
people, refugees from the Mithridatic war north of the Black sea
arrives, carrying I1a, once carried by only a small group of people.
Somehow a few of them take over.
Woden/Ariovistus/Harjagist-, who had led a major campaign through the
Wetterau valley and had almost completed the conquest of what is now
Southern Germany (south of the river Main) from the Boii and Helvetii,
was hired by the Arverni and Sequani to wage war on the Aedui, the
arrangement being, as usual, that the farmers in the land where they
were stationed should provide food (and accommodation?) for them.
Since the Aedui were officially friends of the Romans, Caesar as Roman
consul negotiated with Ariovistus and after getting an agreement that
A. would get out of his employment with the Arverni and Sequani and
stop waging war on the Aedui, A. was pronounced a friend of the Roman
people. However, A. does not leave Sequani territory. The Aedui and
Sequani reach an agreement that this can't be tolerated, so they
together attack A., but are routed. A., who suspects Caesar has had a
role to play in this betrayal, now has to find someone trustworthy to
provide provisions, so he demands another third of the Sequani land
and sends for the Charudes/Hrvaty/Croats from the Carpatians, so that
they might take over evicted farms (this is not a type of work, the
Germani part of A.'s army want to bother with here or elsewhere). The
plan backfires, A. is defeated, and the Charudes/Hrvaty/Croats are
stuck en route, property-less, most of them probably in Noricum, ruled
by A.'s brother-in-law, king Voccio. They have now become a political
embarasment to king V. in his relationship with the Romans and he
decides to get rid of A.'s and his advisors' helmets at Negow,
eventually bequeathing his realm to the Romans on his death in 15 BCE,
probably with some kind of understanding that this would avert
reprisals, and the unwanted Charudes/Hrvaty/Croats begin to migrate
south, becoming the South Slavs. They would then be the people
carrying the Croatian variant I1b-M227
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI08.html
the rest of the Charudes etc went north with the other Germani and
ended in Jutland (Hardsyssel) and Norway (Hordaland).
Snorri: Prologue:
'The Æsir took wives of the land for themselves, and some also for
their sons; and these kindreds became many in number, so that
throughout Saxland, and thence all over the region of the north, they
spread out until their tongue, even the speech of the men of Asia, was
the native tongue over all these lands.'
I1a (Oppenheimer's Ian) has a frequency of 37% in Denmark. There are
no female correspondences to it in distribution.
More than one third. That must have been a bloody affair.
On the other hand I think I read that a similar sociological process
took place in Persia after the Islamic conquest.
Those people populated a large part of NWEurope, under the name of
Germani, from the language their upper class picked up in Przeworsk.
For those that think mass killings is a modern phenomenon
www.austhink.org/monk/War2.doc
Here's something Brian might like:
http://tinyurl.com/6ql4q7
Criminal, POW; once they're in the grave, no one can tell the
difference. Perhaps the 'execution cemeteries' should be reevaluated
as just mass graves. The criminals were guilty of not being Germanic.
The only solid thing ethnically we know of I2 is that is is common in
Sardinia. The only major migratory thing, we might connect with
Sardinia is the Sea Peoples
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/16277
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples
It would seem some of the sea peoples had connections in NWEurope?
Torsten