> > You really don't get it, do you? The Lebor Gabala Erenn has been
> > carefully studied by a number of scholars and they have
> > determined that it is not an ancient text, but rather a medieval >
> literary invention, contstructed from several different sources,
> > including:
> > native (and often contradictory) genealogies, some vestigial
> > pagan Irish mythological material (filtered by Christian
> > authors), Biblical genealogies, and early medieval pseudo-
> > historical texts (which are wildly inaccurate and often fantastic
> > in nature, thus the "pseudo-" tag).
>
> Did they remember to wear their pointy hats and all hold the stake
> when they drove it in? Because if they didn't the evil theory will
> rise again, unless they would come up with counterargument, which
> is a risky business.
I am sure they did. It's not like it was particularly hard work, since
the several of the names found in the sons of Mil episode of the LGE
are quite clearly drawn from Orosius' text.
> > The sections of the LGE concerned with the
> > migration from Spain of the Milesians was ultimately based on the
> > wiritngs of the medieval Spanish author Orosius and Isidore.
> >
> > Let me quote Donnchadh Ó Corráin ("Creating The Past: The Early
> > Irish Genealogical Tradition"):
> > http://www.ucc.ie/chronicon/ocorr.htm
> >
> > "24. The earliest working out of the Isidorian schema
>
> What is the Isidorian schema?
RTFA...paragraph 22: "The Irish adopted the Isidorian schema of the
origins of the races of the descent of the European peoples from Japhet".
> > is to be found in the higher genealogical reaches of two historical
> > poems on the Leinster dynasties, already referred to: (i) `Nuadu
> > Necht ní dámair anfhlaith' and (ii) Énna, Labraid, lúad cáich'.
> > These parts of the poems deal with the ascent of the Leinstermen
> > from the common ancestor, to an ancestor of all the Irish (Míl of
> > Spain) and thence to Japhet, Noah and Adam. While most of the fifty
> > or so names in the line of ascent are common to both poems,
>
> That solves it. They must have copied each other, so it's wrong.
Something tells me you don't really understand O' Corrain's argument -
god forbid you should actually take the time to read and comprehend
his article.
> > One of the nodal characters in this legend is Míl of Spain, a
> > transparent literary invention (= Miles Hispaniae,
> > `Soldier of Spain').
>
> Let's call that that 'an attempt at an etymology' instead.
Still, it is a literary invention and not genuine history.
> > It was believed that the Irish discovered Ireland from Brigantia in
> > Spain. As Rolf Baumgarten has recently shown, the source of this
> > legend is a reading of Orosius (I ii 71 and 80) in the light of
> > Isidore (Etymologiae XIV vi 6)."
>
> Has Rolf Baumgarten also shown that there couldn't have been an oral
> tradition behind this coincidence?
Names found in the LGE account, such as Scene and Bregon are quite
clearly drawn from written sources (Orosius' Scena and Brigantia) and
are were not passed down orally from ancient times (otherwise, they
would have been subject to Irish sound laws Brigantia, for instance,
would have become Brigte). In the case of Scena, this is a corrupt
name in Orosius' text he (or his copyists) should have written Sena
(now the river Shannon). The medieval Irishmen who borrowed this name
from Orosius had no idea that he was referring to the Shannon, thus
they invented a new character, Scene. The LGE's Eber is suspiciously
similar to Latin (H)iberia, as well Isidore suggested that the name
Hibernia was derived from Hiberia.
On and by the way, Orosius' Brigantian lighthouse (oriented towards
Britain) which turns up as Bregon's tower in the Irish sources (from
which the Milesians originally spied Ireland) it was likely built by
the Romans in the 2nd century AD so there goes the notion that this
aspect of the story is some sort of pre-Iron Age folk memory. Look up
the "Tower of Hercules".
See Oliver Szerwiniack's article "D'Orose au Lebor Gabála Érenn: les
gloses du manuscrit Reg. Lat. 1650" [In Études Celtiques 31 (1995) pp.
205-217] fort a discussion of some early medieval, HIberno-Latin
glosses on Orosius which display for us signs of the process of
transmission from his and Isidore's work (which were rather popular
among the medieval Irish) to what ultimately became the LGE.
What follows are the relevant passages from Orosius, Isidore and
Nennius. You can also view a passable translation of the LGE at:
http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/leborgabala.html
=================================================
Historia Brittonum II.13 [based on a source similar to that used by
the later compilers of the LGE]:
Novissime autem Scotti venerunt a partibus Hispaniae ad Hiberniam.
primus autem venit Partholomus cum mille hominibus de viris et
mulieribus et creverunt usque ad quattuor milia hominum et venit
mortalitas super eos et in una septimana omnes perierunt et non
remansit ex illis etiam unus. secundus venit ad Hiberniam Nimeth
filius quidam Agnominis, qui fertur navigasse super mare annum et
dimidium et postea tenuit portum in Hibernia fractis navibus eius et
mansit ibidem per multos annos et iterum navigavit cum suis et ad
Hispaniam reversus est. et postea venerunt tres filii
_militis_Hispaniae_ cum triginta ciulis apud illos et cum triginta
coniugibus in unaquaque ciula et manserunt ibi per spatium unius anni.
et postea conspiciunt turrim vitream in medio mari et homines
conspiciebant super turrim et quaerebant loqui ad illos et numquam
respondebant et ipsi uno anno ad oppugnationem turris properaverunt
cum omnibus ciulis suis et cum omnibus mulieribus excepta una ciula,
quae confracta est naufragio, in qua erant viri triginta totidemque
mulieres. et aliae naves navigaverunt ad expugnandam turrim, et dum
omnes descenderant in litore, quod erat circa turrim, operuit illos
mare et demersi sunt et non evasit unus ex illis. et de familia illius
ciulae, quae relicta est propter fractionem, tota Hibernia impleta est
usque in hodiernum diem. et postea venerunt paulatim a partibus
Hispaniae et tenuerunt regiones plurimas.
====================================================
Isidore [Etymologiae XIV vi 6]:
[6] Scotia idem et Hibernia proxima Brittaniae insula, spatio terrarum
angustior, sed situ fecundior. Haec ab Africo in Boream porrigitur.
Cuius partes priores Hiberiam et Cantabricum Oceanum intendunt, unde
et Hibernia dicta: Scotia autem, quod ab Scotorum gentibus colitur,
appellata. Illic nulla anguis, avis rara, apis nulla, adeo ut advectos
inde pulveres seu lapillos si quis alibi sparserit inter alvaria,
examina favos deserant.
==================================================
Orosius [Adversus Paganos Historium, I ii 71 and 80]:
69 Hispania uniuersa terrarum situ trigona est et circumfusione oceani
Tyrrhenique pelagi paene insula efficitur. 70 huius angulus prior,
spectans ad orientem, a dextris Aquitanica prouincia, a sinistris
Balearico mari coartatus, Narbonensium finibus inseritur. 71 secundus
angulus circium intendit; ubi Brigantia Gallaeciae ciuitas sita
altissimam pharum et inter pauca memorandi operis ad speculam
Britanniae erigit. 72 tertius angulus eius est, qua Gades insulae,
intentae in Africum, Athlantem montem interiecto sinu oceani prospiciunt.
................
80 Hibernia insula inter Britanniam et Hispaniam sita longiore ab
Africo in boream spatio porrigitur. 81 huius partes priores intentae
Cantabrico oceano Brigantiam Gallaeciae ciuitatem ab Africo sibi in
circium occurrentem spatioso interuallo procul spectant, ab eo
praecipue promunturio, ubi Scenae fluminis ostium est et Velabri
Lucenique consistunt. haec propior Britanniae, spatio terrarum
angustior, sed caeli solique temperie magis utilis, a Scottorum
gentibus colitur.
=================================================
Hiberno-Latn glosses on Orosius, from Szerwiniack's article:
Hibernia sed (lege seu) ab Ibero acculaaccula dicta est, sed (idem) de
hibernis quibus mssi sunt exercitus Romani ad eam. Aliter Isidorus:
Scothia idem et Ibernia insole. Cuius priores in Hiberiam et
Cantabricum Ocenum intendunt, unde Hibernia dicta est. Scotha autem,
quod Scotorum gentibus colitur.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Scene id <est> Fele quae prius dictum est
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Velabri a flumine uel Velabri : nam uel aber niger intellegitu
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Luceni - id de nomine uiri, uel de nomine fluminis qui dicitur Lugid
uel Lugdech di ut stagnam Lugdech, quae.
[in the LGE, Fial (gen. Feile] is the name of the Irish chief Lugaid
[gen. Lugdech], son of Ith, son of Bregon, builder of the tower of
Bregon; the Irish chief Eber is buidied at Inber Scene, named for
Scene, wife of Amrrgin; aber in #2 seems to be the rare Old Irish word
abar "dark"- the glossator is attempting to connect Uelabri with the
place name Inber Feile]
================================================
> > The LGE is a pseudo-historical mish-mash composed in the middle
> > ages - Gildas' De Excidio WAS COMPOSED IN THE 6th CENTURY and
> > discusses events that had just occurred/were still ocurring at the
> > time of its writing!!!
>
> Gildas' prospective audience was hardly unbiased. People who are
> being chased from the land they thought was theirs are likely to be
> upset.
> But as Oppenheimer points out, there are no mass graves from the
> period, and settlements show no interruptions. On the other hands,
> after the single massacre of Lidice, the Nazis had peace and quiet >
in the Czech lands. Sometimes, that's all it takes.
There certainly ARE signs of strife from that time period,
though...see this article for some general ideas from an
archaeological point of view on what was going on in Britain after
Rome abandoned the island to its own defenses:
http://www.britarch.ac.uk/BA/ba87/feat1.shtml
It will also be interesting to see what becomes of the following news
story of a mass grave dating to "Saxon" times:
http://www.heraldseries.net/mostpopular.var.2176066.mostviewed.rare_find_could_be_saxon.php
> > > > [The paucity of Celtic words in English can be explained not
> > > > only by the fact that Celtic was low-prestige to the Germanic
> > > > invaders, thus there was no incentive to use it,
> > >
> > > American English has a number of Native American loans, many more
> > > than English has Celtic ones.
> >
> > My lord, can you really not see that these two situations were
> > ENTIRELY DIFFERENT?!
>
> Tell me in which way the were ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.
That is a topic for another day, I am afraid too much to cover in
just one email. I have already wasted an evening composing this reply.
> > > > plus large areas of Britain were apparently de-populated [both
> > > > due to war, emigration to the Continent or Western Britain, and
> > > > plague/famine], thus there was no one around to teach the
> > > > newcomers Brittonic in the Eastern parts of the island.
> > >
> > > How come Western Britain wasn't?
> >
> > Because the Western Britons were tougher?
>
> Can I make an informed guess where your ancestors are from?
Germany, Czech republic/Slovakia, Ireland, Scotland, Wales,, England
and Denmark (Portugal, Poland and France, too, though more distantly).
> So Western England was populated with tough Celts and Eastern England
> with weak Celts, and they spoke the same language?
That seems to be the case if the eastern Britons had been better
organized and put up a better fight, the Germanic incursions could
have been greatly diminished and the English nation would never have
existed (a lot of folks might like the sound of that).
> > > > Additionally, when they reached the Roman cities of Britain,
> > > > Germanic newcomers were more likely to have encountered Latin
> > > > speakers than Brittonic]
> > >
> > > Why was that not the case in Western Britain?
> >
> > There was less Roman influence in certain parts of Britain.
>
> How come there was more Roman influence in Eastern Britain?
Because Wales is hilly and remote? Why does the Welsh language still
persist to this day stubbornness and nationalism are only partly to
blame isolation is a big contributor.
> > Ich habe Kuhn gelesen.
>
> Dann hättest du wohl die Antwort wissen müssen auf die Frage ob er so
> blöd war, dass er meinte, die Sprache der Belgae sei nicht keltisch?
I was being a smart ass (which you didn't seem to catch in my earlier
post) I knew tat Kuhn had proposed a non-Celtic language for the
Belgae; I think he is sorely mistaken (and yes, perhaps a bit daft
at least when it comes to Celtic linguistics).
- Chris Gwinn