Res: [tied] Portuguese sapo "toad", akin to Slavic z^aba ?

----- Mensagem original ----
De: tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Enviadas: Quarta-feira, 2 de Julho de 2008 20:56:17
Assunto: Re: [tied] Portuguese sapo "toad", akin to Slavic z^aba ?

> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@ .>
> >
> >
> > > The Portuguese word for toad is "sapo" whose origin is unknown,
> > > usually seen as Pre-Roman. There was attempts to relate it to
> > > Greek se:ps, to Basque and another possibilities.
> >
> > > I think sapo is very similar to Slavic z^aba. The word could be
> > > IE, but from where? Ligurian? Lusitanian?
> >
> > > PIE *gWe:bH- - Germanic quabbe Dutch kwabbe Latin bu:fo:n-
> > > (<*gWo:bH?) Salvic z^aba Albanian zhab� (< *Slavic?)
> >
> >
> > It is related to Basque apo, aho (if I remember correctly). I
> > asked Larry Trask and he said it was a toss up whether or not it
> > was original to Basque or whether Ibero-Romance and Basque both
> > got it from a third language. There should be something in the
> > old IE or Nostratic archives on it, or in his History of Basque
> >
> Trask, The History of Basque, pp. 419-420
> (in a long discussion of what Basque words might possibly have been
> loaned into the Romance and other languages)
> 'Cast sapo 'toad' : Bq apo
> Castilian shares this word only with Portuguese. The Basque word
> appears variously as zapo, apo or sapo, of which zapo seems to be
> the earliest form. Basque sapo is recent, and almost certainly due
> to Castilian influence. The form apo may also result from a
> mishearing of Castilian los sapos as los apos. It has frequently
> been thought that Castilian sapo is a loan from Basque zapo. This
> is not impossible, but a complication is the well-attested use of
> zapo in Basque as a generic term for 'creepy-crawly' , with various
> other specializations besides 'toad', such as 'firefly'. Corominas
> and Pascual show little interest in a Basque origin for the
> Castilian word, and provide instead an extraordinarily wide-ranging
> discussion of possibly related European words ranging as far as
> ancient Greek sips 'poisonous snake, lizard'.'
>
> You might possibly like this quote better:
> Or�l & Stol'bova, Hamito-Semitic Etymological Dictionary
>
> '581 *c^.amb- "lizard, frog"
> Semitic *s^.abb-:
> Hebrew s.a:b "turtle",
> Arab d.abb-, Harsusi d.o:b, Mehri d.o:b, Shheri d.ob "lizard".
> *-b(b)- continues a prenasalized HS cluster *-mb-.
> WCh *c^.umb- "frog": Hausa c.umbo:.
> Secondary *-u- before a labial.
> Rift *c^amb- "frog": Alagwa c^embe�u, Burunge c^ambe�u.'
>
> Now why didn't Trask look at that?
>
> Torsten
>
> Does Hubschmidt have anything on sapo? He seemed to have combed
> through Berber pretty well.

He does, in 'Sardische Studien', pp 117-118. Unfortunately he thinks
this word is crucial for the determination ofthe identity of the West
European substrate, so it's rather long:

'Dass es methodisch richtiger ist, zuna�chst den baskischen Wortschatz
mit dem na�herliegenden vorromanischen (vorindogermanische n)
Wortschatz zu vergleichen, bevor man Verknu�pfungen mit kaukasischem
Sprachgut fu�r erwiesen ha�lt, mo�chte ich an einem besonders
instruktiven Beispiel zeigen.
Mit bask. 'apho' "Kr�te", bask. (nna-varr., labourd.) 'zapo'
sind sicher verwandt
arag. 'zapo' (> gask. 'sapou', Rohlfs),
span., port. 'sapo' und
ostlombard. (Valvestino) 's^ap' (AIS 455)
in gleicher Bedeutung, auch
Gard 'sabau' "crapaud" (Rolland 3, 47),
�bertragen H�rault, Valence (Tarn) 'sabaud' "vache sterile",
Camar�s 'saB�w' (Bucken-maier 98);
Velay 'sabat�s' "crapaud" (Vinols) und
Bruis (HAlpes) "sabat�s";
voges. 'savate' "Laubfrosch" (Rolland 3, 74),
Morvan 'sibot' "crapaud";
cf. Nigra, AGI 15, 111 und Bertoni, ARom. 2, 360. Die romanischen
Formen beruhen auf den St�mmen *sapp- und *sap-, die aus einer mit dem
Baskischen verwandten vorindogermanischen Sprache stammen m�ssen; sie
sind nicht, wie Schuchardt annahm (ZRPh. 11, 495-496), als romanische
Lehnw�rter ins Baskische gedrungen. Nach Ausweis von span. sapo usw.
wird das z- von bask. zapo alt und bask. apho daraus entstanden sein
(bask. z- kann schwinden). Die von Bouda vorgeschlagene Verknu�pfung
von bask. 'apho' mit swan. 'apxw' "Frosch" mu� daher aufgegeben werden
(Hubschmid, V Rom. 10, 312), es sei denn, es lasse sich ein Schwund
anlautender Sibilanten im Swanischen nachweisen (In einer Mitteilung
vom 13. 4. 1951 schreibt mir Bouda, auf meine Bemerkung in der V Rom.
Bezug nehmend: 'Wenn die Herkunft von (vorrom.) *sappus 'unbekannt
ist' (REW 7593), so scheint die swanische Entsprechung von bask. apho
vorzuziehen zu sein. Gewiss kann bask. (t)z- schwinden, mu� es aber
nicht, es kann auch zutreten.' Offenbar hat Bouda den gro�en Wert von
voridg. *sappo-/*sapo- "Kr�te" f�r die Beurteilung von bask. 'zapo',
'apho' nicht erfa�t).'

But in Mediterrane Substrate, pp- 54-55 he has a large number of words
similar to '*tompo' which mean "puddle" and the like.
I don't know if this is relevant?

Torsten


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> '581 *c^.amb- "lizard, frog"
> Semitic *s^.abb-:
> Hebrew s.a:b "turtle",
> Arab d.abb-, Harsusi d.o:b, Mehri d.o:b, Shheri d.ob "lizard".
> *-b(b)- continues a prenasalized HS cluster *-mb-.
> WCh *c^.umb- "frog": Hausa c.umbo:.
> Secondary *-u- before a labial.
> Rift *c^amb- "frog": Alagwa c^embe�u, Burunge c^ambe�u.'
>

Perhaps the Greek se:ps came from this Semitic root *s^.abb- ...

JS Lopes



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