Re: V-, B-

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@> wrote:
> >
> > At 6:02:56 AM on Sunday, June 22, 2008, tgpedersen wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > I haven't the resources to do a decent job, and I'm not much
> > inclined to do your homework for you, but I was curious
> > enough to a little of the easier work. I've deleted the
> > names that I don't discuss, and I've rearranged the rest to
> > make my comments easier to follow.
>
> I have some minor comments on Dauzat et al.
>
> > > Vesontio, Vesuntio, Visontio, Bizantia, Bisontium,
> > > Bisunzium, Besantio, Vesonticorum, Vesontiensium od.
> > > Crisopolinorum civitas, Besantio,
> > > Besançon, Stadt, Frankr. (Doubs)
> >
> > D&R: from the pre-IE *ves- 'mountain' (cf. mounts <Viso> and
> > <Vésuve>) and the pre-Celt. suffix <-unt-> followed by the
> > suffix <-ionem>, attracted to Low Latin <bison, bisontis>,
> > whence the arms of the city. K.L. Jackson, LHEB 89 n. 2:
>
> 'Mountain' sounds like a mere guess on Dauzat's or Rostaing's
> part. <Vesuvius> is formed like <Da:nuvius>, which is securely IE.
> <Vesulus>, now <Viso>, is indeed another mountain, but <Vesubia> is
> a river-name, <Vesunna> a stream-goddess of the Petrocorii, and
> <Vesu:na> (from *Wes-(e)s-o:na: to avoid rhotacism?) an Italic
> goddess, consort of Pomonus. At least some of these might be
> derived from PIE *wes- 'to stay, dwell, exist'. The scholiast on
> Isidore says "Vesulus mons Ligurum est superantissimus inter juga
> Alpium, dictus quia videtur a longe solus". While we may scoff at
> the implied contraction of "visus solus", this mountain clearly has
> staying power, remaining in sight after others have dipped below
> the traveler's horizon, and the same might be said of Vesuvius.
> Streams and their goddesses can be named after their own staying
> power, like <Ju:turna> = *Diu:turna.
>
> <Vesontio:> is formed like the river-name <Alisontia> (Ausonius,
> loc. inc.), *Alisontia (now Elze/Alzette > Sauer, Lux.), a variant
> (probably due to different reflections of syllabic */n./) of
> *Alisantia (one now Alsenz > Nahe, another Elsenz > Neckar). These
> formations in -antia may not be historically productive in Celtic
> but they are securely IE.
>
> > > 'Vapincum, -cesium, Vappincum, Bapinco, Vapingo,
> > > Vappincenslum od. Guapincensium civitas,
> > > Gap, Stadt, Frankr. (Hautes-Alpes)
> >
> > Dauzat & Rostaing: a pre-Latin word, probably Ligurian, of
> > obscure meaning; the initial <v-> has been treated like a
> > Gmc. <w->.
>
> *vap(p)- is apparently unattested in Liguria proper, unless
> <Varpros> (Tab. Vel.) is an error for *Vapros. Petracco Sicardi
> suggests a possible connection between the latter and L. <vepres>
> 'thorn-bush'. Connection of either with pre-Gmc. *we:pna- 'weapon'
> is far-fetched and explains nothing. Hubschmid cites a Gaulish
> *wabero- 'brook' as the source of Prov. <vabre> 'id.', but it is
> very difficult to get *vap(p)- out of that; if the PIE root was
> *gweH2bh- 'to dip, sink' (Gr. <bápto:>), might one have Gaul.
> *wapto- 'inundated'?
>
> > > Vultonna, -tumnus,
> > > Boutonne, Nfl. d. Charente, Frankr.
> >
> > <Vultumna>, nombre de un alfuente de la Charente[28], que
> > en época carolingia se denomina <Boutonne>. Considera que
> > es el mismo radical que el nombre del clásico <Volturnus>,
> > río de la Italia central.
> >
> > [28] Dauzat-Deslandes-Rostaing 1978, s.u. <Vologne> nos
> > dan testimoniado <Vultumna> en el 830 y <Vultonna> en el
> > 951. La forma con b- aparece ya desde 1317.
> >
> >

<emerita.revistas.csic.es/index.php/emerita/article/download/111/112>

> > (PDF)
>
> Connection with the river of Capua is extremely unlikely.
> According to Livy, the Samnites changed the name of the town from
> Volturnum to Capua when they took it from the Etruscans; the river
> kept its old name and is still Volturno. Both the Oscan and the
> Etruscan name, *Velthurna, are apparently based on words for 'hawk,
> raptor', the Etr. *velthur (also a praenomen) being borrowed into
> Latin as <voltur>, <vultur> (originally 'hawk' not 'vulture'). The
> French river shows the same variation as Gallo-Latin <Garumna>,
> <Garunna>, now <Garonne>, and there is no reason to connect a
> Gaulish river-name with an Etruscan one.

I've been reading lately a book a the kind linguists shouldn't.
Joz^ef S^avli — Matej Bor, 'Unsere Vorfahren, Die Veneter'.
It belongs to the recent tradition that the Slovenians were really
Veneti, and that the Slavs thus were there all along. They do have
some intriguing facts. How they account for the Slavic languages being
so similar and for the Eastern Slavic territory being without
onomastic material pointing to *wenet- I don't know.
'Alles spricht dafür, daß die Veneter in der Aussprache mancher
Buchstaben ziemlich unsicher waren, wie es übrigens den Slowenen vom
Küstenland (Primorska) noch heute ergeht. Sie haben leicht /v/ mit /b/
verwechselt (Betatismus), z. B. 'vog' anstatt 'bog'.'
"Everything seems to indicate that the Veneti were rather uncertain in
their pronunciation of many letters, as still today it happens to the
Slovenians of the coast land (Primorska). The easily confuse /v/ with
/b/, eg. 'vog' instead of 'bog'."

Now that's not linguist talk, but it seems fairly clear that Primorska
Slovenian has /b/ > /v/. So I wondered that if one reinterpreted
S^avli and Bor to be about a Venetic substrate in Slovenian instead
that this 'betatismus' could be used as an indicator of Venetic
presence (outside Spain, obviously), eg. the Bec^ names for Vienna,
and the Be^lák, Beljak, Bljàk names for Villach?


Torsten