From: tgpedersen
Message: 59408
Date: 2008-06-25
>That's a beautiful piece of research. I wish you would abstain from
> At 6:02:56 AM on Sunday, June 22, 2008, tgpedersen wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
> > <BMScott@> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> Haven't looked into it seriously enough to have an
> >> opinion.
>
> > True to style.
>
> Barring a lucky accident, there hadn't been enough time
> since you brought it up for me to have looked into it very
> seriously, at least by *my* standards.
>
> [...]
>
> > This what I get from Orbis Latinus
>
> > http://www.pribramska.cz/knih/ruzne/Graesse/orblatv.html
> > http://www.pribramska.cz/knih/ruzne/Graesse/orblatb.html
> > http://www.pribramska.cz/knih/ruzne/Graesse/orblatw.html
>
> Yet another example of the 'throw enough mud at the wall,
> and maybe some of it will stick' technique. Or perhaps
> research à la Adrian Gilbert, Alan Wilson, Baram Blackett,
> and the like.
>
> The sources of the names in Orbis Latinus are exceedingly
> various, and some are very late. There's nothing wrong with
> using OL as a source of name forms to investigate, but
> that's the barest start: individual investigation -- the
> step that you always omit -- is required.
>
> I haven't the resources to do a decent job, and I'm not much
> inclined to do your homework for you, but I was curious
> enough to a little of the easier work. I've deleted the
> names that I don't discuss, and I've rearranged the rest to
> make my comments easier to follow.
>
> > Vesontio, Vesuntio, Visontio, Bizantia, Bisontium,
> > Bisunzium, Besantio, Vesonticorum, Vesontiensium od.
> > Crisopolinorum civitas, Besantio,
> > Besançon, Stadt, Frankr. (Doubs)
>
> D&R: from the pre-IE *ves- 'mountain' (cf. mounts <Viso> and
> <Vésuve>) and the pre-Celt. suffix <-unt-> followed by the
> suffix <-ionem>, attracted to Low Latin <bison, bisontis>,
> whence the arms of the city. K.L. Jackson, LHEB 89 n. 2:
>
> There appear to have been sporadic examples of initial
> Latin <v-> becoming the media [b] in VL., e.g. <Vesontio>
> > Besançon; it is common in inscriptions, but there it is
> probably mainly graphic, as a result of the confusion in
> the spelling internally. See Grandgent, IVL. p. 133,
> Richter, CPF. pp. 60-63. This is not found at all in
> loanwords in Brit. According to A. Mawer, _The Place
> Names of Northumberland and Durham_ (Cambridge, 1920), p.
> 22, <Vinovia> became Binchester in this way; but the
> absence of any parallel to Latin <v-> giving Brit. <b->,
> and the fact that in any case the phenomenon presupposes
> Latin <v-> first > [B]-, which did not happen in Britain,
> is strongly against it. Moreover, the is, after all,
> Brit., not Latin, and initial Brit. <w-> never became <b>.
> Ekwall gives a quite different and perfectly satisfactory
> derivation for Binchester, Dict. p. 41. See, however, p.
> 260 below.
>
> The relevant material on p. 260:
>
> Positive evidence for any of the other well-known
> developments of Vulgar Latin not found in British Latin as
> we know it, such as the assibilations of <t> and <c>, the
> change of <w> to <B>, the new quantity system based on the
> nature of the syllable, and so on, is all equally lacking.
> So, for instance, the fact that <Pennocrucium> was taken
> over with the second <c> still a guttural, not <ts>, or
> that <Sorviodunum> gave AS. <Searoburh>, not *<Syrfeburh>
> with <B>, shows that the English did not hear these names
> from speakers of the Continental type of Vulgar Latin[5],
> but from Britons talking Brittonic -- and not even
> British Latin either, because the AS. <Pencric> has
> sound-substitution for British, not British Latin, <ü:>
> (cf. § 20. 2), and the vocalism of the first syllable of
> <Searoburh> points to a PR.W. form *<Serw> with Late
> British vowel-affection.
>
> [5] Mawer's explanation of Binchester (see p. 89) would
> certainly predicate the <B> pronunciation, and subsequent
> confusion with <b->; but it is not a probable one.
> Initial <V-> in names in Britain invariably appears as
> <W-> in English.
>
> The Ravenna Cosmography has <Bizantia>, <bizancia>,
> <Bizuntia>.
>
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=mlxRV1Gz1ZkC>
>
> > Vinovia,
> > Binchester, D., England (Durham)
>
> It's not even known whether the Roman and English names are
> related. The English name is found as <Bynceastre> ~1050,
> <Bincestre> 1104x8; Ekwall suggests that the first element
> may be OE <binn> 'manger', later also 'stall', the old fort
> perhaps having been used as a shelter for cattle. A.H.
> Smith also notes that the name may contain OE <binn>. He
> mentions that it's been suggested that it derives from
> <Vinovia>, the name of a nearby Roman station, but points
> out that this would normally have given Engl. <Win->. K.L.
> Jackson expanded on that in LHEB; see the comments above.
>
> > Vin-, Bindogladia,
> > Blandford, Stadt, England (Dorset)
>
> K.L. Jackson, LHEB, p. 35:
>
> Another very common mistake is the confusion of <b> and
> <v>, arising from the fact that in Vulgar Latin <v> in all
> positions, and internal <b>, had both come to be
> pronounced [B}, the bilabial <v>; see p. 88. Examples are
> fairly frequent, especially in Ravennas, who has, for
> instance, <Bindogladia> for the <Vindogladia> or
> <Vindocladia> of AI., and the opposite error <Avalana> for
> <Aballava>; while ND. reads <Aballaba>.
>
> Here 'Ravennas' refers to the anonymous Ravenna Cosmography,
> compiled around 700, which includes 'a list of British
> place-names jumbled together and preserved in an exceedingly
> corrupt form'; the British section goes back to a 4th c.
> source. ND is the Notitia Dignitatum, an official list of
> the disposition of the Roman forces in Britain at the
> beginning of the 5th c. AI is the Antonine Itinerary, a
> gazetteer of the cities and towns along the chief Roman
> roads, with the mileage between them, from about 300 CE.
>
> > Bicestria, Vicestria,
> > Bicêtre, D., Frankreich
>
> From the Grand Larousse encyclopédique:
>
> Bicêtre tire son nom d'un château construit en 1285 par
> Jean de Pontoise, évêque de <Winchester>, terminologie
> déformée en <Wincestre>, puis <Bicêtre>.
>
> Estienne Cholet, _Remarques singulières de la ville cite et
> université de Paris_, 1614 (in an edition of 1881, whose
> editor supplied the footnote):
>
> BISSESTRE ou Vvicestre[1] est vn Chasteau basty par Iean
> Duc de Berry, fils du Roy Iean, sous l'autorité Royale de
> Charles V, non par les Anglois, ainsi qu'estime le
> vulgaire. [...]
>
> [1] Jean, éveque de Wincester en Angleterre, bâtit, en
> 1290, un château en cet endroit, qui s'appelait auparavant
> la <Grange aux queux>. Dans la suite, par corruption, le
> peuple le nomma Vinchestre, Bichestre et Bicêtre. Jean,
> Duc de Berry, le reconstruisit sur un nouveau plan et avec
> magnificence; [...]
>
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=bigKAAAAIAAJ>
>
> 1290 seems to be the date usually given. Other sources
> mention a form <Bincestre>. The place is now within the
> southern suburbs of Paris. There is no old Latin or
> pre-Latin name here: <Bicestria> and <Vicestria> are clearly
> just documentary Latinizations.
>
> > 'Vapincum, -cesium, Vappincum, Bapinco, Vapingo,
> > Vappincenslum od. Guapincensium civitas,
> > Gap, Stadt, Frankr. (Hautes-Alpes)
>
> Dauzat & Rostaing: a pre-Latin word, probably Ligurian, of
> obscure meaning; the initial <v-> has been treated like a
> Gmc. <w->.
>
> Gmc. initial /w-/ became early OFr. /gw-/, which became /g-/
> by the end of the 12th c.; this explains <Guapincensium> and
> <Gap>. <Bapinco> is from the Ravenna Cosmography and hence
> suspect.
>
> > Vibiscum, Viviscus, Bibiscum, Viviacum,
> > Vevey, Stadt, Schweiz (Waadt)
>
> The Ravenna Cosmography has <Bibiscon>, which appears to be
> the source of <Bibiscum>.
>
> > Vesalia, Ves. superior, Wesalia, Wesela, Wessila, Wyesela,
> > Vosalia, Vosava, Bosagnia, Ficella (Wasaliacensis),
> > Oberwesel, Stadt, Preußen (Rheinprov.)
>
> Wasaliacensis 649
> Vesalia civit. 1254
> Wesalia, Wesele 1262
> Wesalia super. 1280, 1287
> Wessila 1287
> Wyesela 1287
> Wesela 1288, 1289, 1300
> Oberwesel 1389
>
> <Bosagnia> is from the Ravenna Cosmography and is clearly
> corrupt.
>
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=lOCvcWnF3UwC>
>
> > Vasatica, Vesatica, Vasatum, Basatum civitas, Vasatis,
> > Bazas, Stadt, Frankr. (Gironde)
>
> Dauzat & Rostaing: at first <Cossium>, then <civitas
> Vasates> 4th c.; from the Aquitanian ethnonym <Vasates>.
>
> This is in the southwest, in or near the historically
> Gascon-speaking region. Gascon has [b] and [B] but no [v],
> and I believe that [B] does not occur initially. That this
> should end up with <B-> is therefore hardly surprising.
>
> > Vultonna, -tumnus,
> > Boutonne, Nfl. d. Charente, Frankr.
>
> <Vultumna>, nombre de un alfuente de la Charente[28], que
> en época carolingia se denomina <Boutonne>. Considera que
> es el mismo radical que el nombre del clásico <Volturnus>,
> río de la Italia central.
>
> [28] Dauzat-Deslandes-Rostaing 1978, s.u. <Vologne> nos
> dan testimoniado <Vultumna> en el 830 y <Vultonna> en el
> 951. La forma con b- aparece ya desde 1317.
>
> <emerita.revistas.csic.es/index.php/emerita/article/download/111/112>
> (PDF)
>
> This is also in the southwest, albeit not quite so far
> south.
>
> > Wazelinsruthi, Wacilinisruti, Becilinisruti,
> > Bezzelinsruthi,
> > Wetzisreute, D., Württemberg (Donaukreis)
>
> The four <-rut(h)i> forms are all from 1109 and all from the
> same source, according to
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=lOCvcWnF3UwC>.
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=PoYqAAAAMAAJ>, p. xiv, has
> <Bezzelinsruthi>, <Wazelinsruthi> 1278, and on p. xii, also
> from the second half of the 13th c., <Becilinisru'ti>.
> (Here <u'> denotes <u> with a small vertical stroke above
> it, an old form of umlaut.)
>
> This is a clearing-name from the eastward expansion, so the
> first element is almost certainly a personal name. The
> diminutive <Waz(z)elin> is well-attested, but so is the
> diminutive <Bez(z)elin>. The latter is from <Bez(z)o>, from
> <Betto>, a pet form of names in <Bert->; the former, from
> <Waz(z)o>, from <Watto>, a pet form of names in <Wad-> ~
> <Wat->. (There's also a <Wezzo>, from names in <Wern->.)
> In a document of 4 August 1278 Pope Nicholas III took the
> abbey of Weingarten under his protection, including all of
> its possessions, which are individually named; two of them,
> named in immediate succession, are Wezzelnsruthi and
> Bezzelinsruti.
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=94gqAAAAMAAJ>, p. 123f.
>
> The obvious explanation is that there were originally two
> neighboring farms, one cleared by Wazelin, the other by
> Bezelin, and that the names were subsequently conflated;
> apparently <Wetzisreute> takes its <W-> from one name and
> its first vowel from the other.
>
> > Verodunum, Veredunum, Veridunum, Virodunum, Virdunum,
> > Viridunum, Wirdunum, Viridonium, Viritonium, Viridinnum,
> > Clarorum urbs (Ver, Bardunensis),
> > Verdun, Stadt, Frankr. (Meuse)
>
> At least one instance of <Bardunensis> is in a source that
> in the same sentence has <Besintionensis> for <Vesontiensis>
> 'de Besançon' and <Biennensis> for <Viennensis> 'de Vienne',
> the Annales Bertiniani, anno 865; this part was written by
> Hincmar of Reims (806-882). At that date occasional
> orthographic B/V confusion is to be expected.
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=3k0YAAAAMAAJ>
>
> > Verona, Bernum, Berma, Berna, Bernna, Berona, Beruna,
> > Verena, Arctopolis,
> > Bern, Stadt, Schweiz
>
> <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bern>:
>
> Nach ersten Siedlungen auf der Engehalbinsel in der
> La-Tène-Zeit und der gallorömischen Epoche wurde die Stadt
> 1191 von Herzog Berchthold V. von Zähringen gegründet.
> Laut einer Sage nannte er die Neugründung Bern, weil er
> dort einen Bären gefangen haben soll. Dies ist jedoch eine
> Volksetymologie. Wahrscheinlicher ist jedoch, dass er die
> Stadt nach Bern, dem damals üblichen deutschen Namen von
> Verona benannte, im Gedenken an den von Berchthold
> verehrten Sagenhelden Dietrich von Bern.
>
> Dietrich's Bern is of course Verona in Italy.
>
> Thanks to the popularity of Dietrich von Berne and his saga,
> of which there is even an ON version (Þiðreks saga af Bern),
> the equation Germ. <Bern> = Lat. <Verona> was
> well-established; the only real question here is why Verona
> came to be called <Bern> in German. <Berna> goes back at
> least to the 10th c. (Thietmar v. Merseburg); Schwarz says
> without explanation that the Goths had already borrowed the
> name as *<Baíruna>. If the borrowing really is that old,
> it's possible that <Verona> had [B], and the closest
> available Gmc. choices were [b] and [w]; if so, the choice
> of [b] is hardly surprising.
>
> > Verona,
> > Beraun, Stadt, Böhmen (Horowitz)
>
> Wikipedia, quoting the 1911 Britannica:
>
> Beroun was originally called na Brode^ (by the ford), and
> received the name of Bern, Berun or Verona in the 13th
> century, when it obtained the privileges of a city from
> the emperor Charles IV, who was specially attached to the
> place, calling it "Verona mea."
>
> By that time the association <Bern> ~ <Verona> was of course
> well-established.
>
> > Bonna, Bunna, Verona, Ubiorum arx,
> > Bonn, Stadt, Preußen (Rheinprovinz)
>
> The application of <Verona> to Bonn is a learned invention
> of the 10th c.: 'cisalpinae Verone, quae usiatius [sic]
> Bunna vocantur' (959 CE). Apparently it was intended to
> give the city a more distinguished past; I've read in
> several places that in the high Middle Ages it was popularly
> believed that <Bonna> had replaced an ancient <Verona>,
> though in fact Tacitus has <castra Bonnensia>.
> <http://www.semafoor.net/niftelungen.htm>
>
> > Barda, -do, Brido, Burda,
> > Wartha, Stadt, Preußen (Schlesien)
>
> <http://www.bardo.info.pl/bardo2/ciekawos.htm> gives <Brido>
> 1096; <Burdan>, <Bardun> 1124; <Gradice Barda> 1155;
> <Bardon>, <Berdow> 1189; <Barda>, <Warda> 1190; <Bardo>
> 1202; <de Bardo>, <Bard> 1207; <Bardo> 1230; <Wartha> 1301;
> <Warta> 1310; <Warthe> 1348; <oppido Warthae in Silesia>
> 1631; <Wartha> 1791; <Brodno>, <Byrdo> 1945; <Warta
> S'la,ska>, <Warta>, <Bardo S'la,skie>, <Bardo> 1946. The
> original name, which seems to have had <B->, will presumably
> have been Slavic, and it appears that the <W-> forms are
> originally German. It was a castle, so the name may have
> been attracted to <Warte> 'watchtower', but see also the
> last entry below (<Wurcza terra> = <Burzenland>).
>
> > Bonsidelia,
> > Wunsiedel, Stadt, Bayern (Oberfranken)
>
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=lOCvcWnF3UwC> has only
> <Wunsidl>, <Wunsidel> 1459, <Wonsidel> 1472. I've not found
> any instance of <Bonsidelia> before the 17th century. Some
> serious research would be needed, but it seems possible that
> it's a post-medieval Latinization predicated on an erroneous
> etymology.
>
> > Bicina,
> > Wieste, Nfl., d. Wömme (Weser), Hannover
>
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=lOCvcWnF3UwC>: <Bicina>
> 788 (Adami Gesta Hamburg.) It's not at all clear that
> the modern name has anything to do with Adam's <Bicina>.
>
> > Westfali, -fala(h)i, -falhii, -faldingi, -phalia,
> > Guestfalia, Bestvalia, Saxones occidentales,
> > Westfalen, ... Preuß. Prov.
>
> <Guestfalia> requires no explanation.
>
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=lOCvcWnF3UwC> has
> <Bestvalia> 1285 from the Continuatio Weichardi de Polhaim);
> this Weichard appears to be the Weichert von Polheim who was
> archbishop of Salzburg from 1312 until his death in 1315.
> <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weichart_von_Polheim>
>
> If the substitution means anything at all, it suggests that
> you should look into Austrian dialects of MHG.
>
> > Wurcza terra,
> > Burzenland, Lschf., Siebenbürgen
>
> <Wurtzenland> in Gebhard Dacher, Die Chroniken der Stadt
> Konstanz, before 1472
> (<http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Bericht_%C3%BCber_Dracole>).
> In the Drakula-Erzählung of the same vintage ('Die histori
> von dem posen Dracol der vil wunders vnd vbels begangen
> hat') it appears as <Wurtzenland>, <Burtzenlant>, and
> <wurtzland>. The similar 'Die geschicht dracole waide',
> 1488, seems to have only <wurtzland>.
> <http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Die_geschicht_dracole_waide>
> The Urkundenbuch der Stadt Lübeck has a document dated 4
> July 1427 'Geben zur Cron in Wurtzland' (at Kronstadt in
> Burzenland).
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=OfsDAAAAYAAJ>
>
> <Wurcza> 1210
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=lOCvcWnF3UwC>, p. 107.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burzenland>:
>
> Burzenland is named after the stream Bârsa (Barca, Burzen,
> 1231: Borza), which flows into the Olt river.
>
> [...]
>
> The German colonists from this region are attested in
> documents as early as 1192 when <terra Bozza> is mentioned
> as being settled by Germans (<Theutonici>).
>
> (For what it's worth, it says that 'Romanian word <bârsä> is
> supposedly of Dacian origin'.)
>
> It does appear that <W-> was a medieval German substitution,
> but it's not clear why it was made.