Re: V-, B-

From: tgpedersen
Message: 59408
Date: 2008-06-25

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:
>
> At 6:02:56 AM on Sunday, June 22, 2008, tgpedersen wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
> > <BMScott@> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> Haven't looked into it seriously enough to have an
> >> opinion.
>
> > True to style.
>
> Barring a lucky accident, there hadn't been enough time
> since you brought it up for me to have looked into it very
> seriously, at least by *my* standards.
>
> [...]
>
> > This what I get from Orbis Latinus
>
> > http://www.pribramska.cz/knih/ruzne/Graesse/orblatv.html
> > http://www.pribramska.cz/knih/ruzne/Graesse/orblatb.html
> > http://www.pribramska.cz/knih/ruzne/Graesse/orblatw.html
>
> Yet another example of the 'throw enough mud at the wall,
> and maybe some of it will stick' technique. Or perhaps
> research à la Adrian Gilbert, Alan Wilson, Baram Blackett,
> and the like.
>
> The sources of the names in Orbis Latinus are exceedingly
> various, and some are very late. There's nothing wrong with
> using OL as a source of name forms to investigate, but
> that's the barest start: individual investigation -- the
> step that you always omit -- is required.
>
> I haven't the resources to do a decent job, and I'm not much
> inclined to do your homework for you, but I was curious
> enough to a little of the easier work. I've deleted the
> names that I don't discuss, and I've rearranged the rest to
> make my comments easier to follow.
>
> > Vesontio, Vesuntio, Visontio, Bizantia, Bisontium,
> > Bisunzium, Besantio, Vesonticorum, Vesontiensium od.
> > Crisopolinorum civitas, Besantio,
> > Besançon, Stadt, Frankr. (Doubs)
>
> D&R: from the pre-IE *ves- 'mountain' (cf. mounts <Viso> and
> <Vésuve>) and the pre-Celt. suffix <-unt-> followed by the
> suffix <-ionem>, attracted to Low Latin <bison, bisontis>,
> whence the arms of the city. K.L. Jackson, LHEB 89 n. 2:
>
> There appear to have been sporadic examples of initial
> Latin <v-> becoming the media [b] in VL., e.g. <Vesontio>
> > Besançon; it is common in inscriptions, but there it is
> probably mainly graphic, as a result of the confusion in
> the spelling internally. See Grandgent, IVL. p. 133,
> Richter, CPF. pp. 60-63. This is not found at all in
> loanwords in Brit. According to A. Mawer, _The Place
> Names of Northumberland and Durham_ (Cambridge, 1920), p.
> 22, <Vinovia> became Binchester in this way; but the
> absence of any parallel to Latin <v-> giving Brit. <b->,
> and the fact that in any case the phenomenon presupposes
> Latin <v-> first > [B]-, which did not happen in Britain,
> is strongly against it. Moreover, the is, after all,
> Brit., not Latin, and initial Brit. <w-> never became <b>.
> Ekwall gives a quite different and perfectly satisfactory
> derivation for Binchester, Dict. p. 41. See, however, p.
> 260 below.
>
> The relevant material on p. 260:
>
> Positive evidence for any of the other well-known
> developments of Vulgar Latin not found in British Latin as
> we know it, such as the assibilations of <t> and <c>, the
> change of <w> to <B>, the new quantity system based on the
> nature of the syllable, and so on, is all equally lacking.
> So, for instance, the fact that <Pennocrucium> was taken
> over with the second <c> still a guttural, not <ts>, or
> that <Sorviodunum> gave AS. <Searoburh>, not *<Syrfeburh>
> with <B>, shows that the English did not hear these names
> from speakers of the Continental type of Vulgar Latin[5],
> but from Britons talking Brittonic -- and not even
> British Latin either, because the AS. <Pencric> has
> sound-substitution for British, not British Latin, <ü:>
> (cf. § 20. 2), and the vocalism of the first syllable of
> <Searoburh> points to a PR.W. form *<Serw> with Late
> British vowel-affection.
>
> [5] Mawer's explanation of Binchester (see p. 89) would
> certainly predicate the <B> pronunciation, and subsequent
> confusion with <b->; but it is not a probable one.
> Initial <V-> in names in Britain invariably appears as
> <W-> in English.
>
> The Ravenna Cosmography has <Bizantia>, <bizancia>,
> <Bizuntia>.
>
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=mlxRV1Gz1ZkC>
>
> > Vinovia,
> > Binchester, D., England (Durham)
>
> It's not even known whether the Roman and English names are
> related. The English name is found as <Bynceastre> ~1050,
> <Bincestre> 1104x8; Ekwall suggests that the first element
> may be OE <binn> 'manger', later also 'stall', the old fort
> perhaps having been used as a shelter for cattle. A.H.
> Smith also notes that the name may contain OE <binn>. He
> mentions that it's been suggested that it derives from
> <Vinovia>, the name of a nearby Roman station, but points
> out that this would normally have given Engl. <Win->. K.L.
> Jackson expanded on that in LHEB; see the comments above.
>
> > Vin-, Bindogladia,
> > Blandford, Stadt, England (Dorset)
>
> K.L. Jackson, LHEB, p. 35:
>
> Another very common mistake is the confusion of <b> and
> <v>, arising from the fact that in Vulgar Latin <v> in all
> positions, and internal <b>, had both come to be
> pronounced [B}, the bilabial <v>; see p. 88. Examples are
> fairly frequent, especially in Ravennas, who has, for
> instance, <Bindogladia> for the <Vindogladia> or
> <Vindocladia> of AI., and the opposite error <Avalana> for
> <Aballava>; while ND. reads <Aballaba>.
>
> Here 'Ravennas' refers to the anonymous Ravenna Cosmography,
> compiled around 700, which includes 'a list of British
> place-names jumbled together and preserved in an exceedingly
> corrupt form'; the British section goes back to a 4th c.
> source. ND is the Notitia Dignitatum, an official list of
> the disposition of the Roman forces in Britain at the
> beginning of the 5th c. AI is the Antonine Itinerary, a
> gazetteer of the cities and towns along the chief Roman
> roads, with the mileage between them, from about 300 CE.
>
> > Bicestria, Vicestria,
> > Bicêtre, D., Frankreich
>
> From the Grand Larousse encyclopédique:
>
> Bicêtre tire son nom d'un château construit en 1285 par
> Jean de Pontoise, évêque de <Winchester>, terminologie
> déformée en <Wincestre>, puis <Bicêtre>.
>
> Estienne Cholet, _Remarques singulières de la ville cite et
> université de Paris_, 1614 (in an edition of 1881, whose
> editor supplied the footnote):
>
> BISSESTRE ou Vvicestre[1] est vn Chasteau basty par Iean
> Duc de Berry, fils du Roy Iean, sous l'autorité Royale de
> Charles V, non par les Anglois, ainsi qu'estime le
> vulgaire. [...]
>
> [1] Jean, éveque de Wincester en Angleterre, bâtit, en
> 1290, un château en cet endroit, qui s'appelait auparavant
> la <Grange aux queux>. Dans la suite, par corruption, le
> peuple le nomma Vinchestre, Bichestre et Bicêtre. Jean,
> Duc de Berry, le reconstruisit sur un nouveau plan et avec
> magnificence; [...]
>
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=bigKAAAAIAAJ>
>
> 1290 seems to be the date usually given. Other sources
> mention a form <Bincestre>. The place is now within the
> southern suburbs of Paris. There is no old Latin or
> pre-Latin name here: <Bicestria> and <Vicestria> are clearly
> just documentary Latinizations.
>
> > 'Vapincum, -cesium, Vappincum, Bapinco, Vapingo,
> > Vappincenslum od. Guapincensium civitas,
> > Gap, Stadt, Frankr. (Hautes-Alpes)
>
> Dauzat & Rostaing: a pre-Latin word, probably Ligurian, of
> obscure meaning; the initial <v-> has been treated like a
> Gmc. <w->.
>
> Gmc. initial /w-/ became early OFr. /gw-/, which became /g-/
> by the end of the 12th c.; this explains <Guapincensium> and
> <Gap>. <Bapinco> is from the Ravenna Cosmography and hence
> suspect.
>
> > Vibiscum, Viviscus, Bibiscum, Viviacum,
> > Vevey, Stadt, Schweiz (Waadt)
>
> The Ravenna Cosmography has <Bibiscon>, which appears to be
> the source of <Bibiscum>.
>
> > Vesalia, Ves. superior, Wesalia, Wesela, Wessila, Wyesela,
> > Vosalia, Vosava, Bosagnia, Ficella (Wasaliacensis),
> > Oberwesel, Stadt, Preußen (Rheinprov.)
>
> Wasaliacensis 649
> Vesalia civit. 1254
> Wesalia, Wesele 1262
> Wesalia super. 1280, 1287
> Wessila 1287
> Wyesela 1287
> Wesela 1288, 1289, 1300
> Oberwesel 1389
>
> <Bosagnia> is from the Ravenna Cosmography and is clearly
> corrupt.
>
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=lOCvcWnF3UwC>
>
> > Vasatica, Vesatica, Vasatum, Basatum civitas, Vasatis,
> > Bazas, Stadt, Frankr. (Gironde)
>
> Dauzat & Rostaing: at first <Cossium>, then <civitas
> Vasates> 4th c.; from the Aquitanian ethnonym <Vasates>.
>
> This is in the southwest, in or near the historically
> Gascon-speaking region. Gascon has [b] and [B] but no [v],
> and I believe that [B] does not occur initially. That this
> should end up with <B-> is therefore hardly surprising.
>
> > Vultonna, -tumnus,
> > Boutonne, Nfl. d. Charente, Frankr.
>
> <Vultumna>, nombre de un alfuente de la Charente[28], que
> en época carolingia se denomina <Boutonne>. Considera que
> es el mismo radical que el nombre del clásico <Volturnus>,
> río de la Italia central.
>
> [28] Dauzat-Deslandes-Rostaing 1978, s.u. <Vologne> nos
> dan testimoniado <Vultumna> en el 830 y <Vultonna> en el
> 951. La forma con b- aparece ya desde 1317.
>
> <emerita.revistas.csic.es/index.php/emerita/article/download/111/112>
> (PDF)
>
> This is also in the southwest, albeit not quite so far
> south.
>
> > Wazelinsruthi, Wacilinisruti, Becilinisruti,
> > Bezzelinsruthi,
> > Wetzisreute, D., Württemberg (Donaukreis)
>
> The four <-rut(h)i> forms are all from 1109 and all from the
> same source, according to
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=lOCvcWnF3UwC>.
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=PoYqAAAAMAAJ>, p. xiv, has
> <Bezzelinsruthi>, <Wazelinsruthi> 1278, and on p. xii, also
> from the second half of the 13th c., <Becilinisru'ti>.
> (Here <u'> denotes <u> with a small vertical stroke above
> it, an old form of umlaut.)
>
> This is a clearing-name from the eastward expansion, so the
> first element is almost certainly a personal name. The
> diminutive <Waz(z)elin> is well-attested, but so is the
> diminutive <Bez(z)elin>. The latter is from <Bez(z)o>, from
> <Betto>, a pet form of names in <Bert->; the former, from
> <Waz(z)o>, from <Watto>, a pet form of names in <Wad-> ~
> <Wat->. (There's also a <Wezzo>, from names in <Wern->.)
> In a document of 4 August 1278 Pope Nicholas III took the
> abbey of Weingarten under his protection, including all of
> its possessions, which are individually named; two of them,
> named in immediate succession, are Wezzelnsruthi and
> Bezzelinsruti.
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=94gqAAAAMAAJ>, p. 123f.
>
> The obvious explanation is that there were originally two
> neighboring farms, one cleared by Wazelin, the other by
> Bezelin, and that the names were subsequently conflated;
> apparently <Wetzisreute> takes its <W-> from one name and
> its first vowel from the other.
>
> > Verodunum, Veredunum, Veridunum, Virodunum, Virdunum,
> > Viridunum, Wirdunum, Viridonium, Viritonium, Viridinnum,
> > Clarorum urbs (Ver, Bardunensis),
> > Verdun, Stadt, Frankr. (Meuse)
>
> At least one instance of <Bardunensis> is in a source that
> in the same sentence has <Besintionensis> for <Vesontiensis>
> 'de Besançon' and <Biennensis> for <Viennensis> 'de Vienne',
> the Annales Bertiniani, anno 865; this part was written by
> Hincmar of Reims (806-882). At that date occasional
> orthographic B/V confusion is to be expected.
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=3k0YAAAAMAAJ>
>
> > Verona, Bernum, Berma, Berna, Bernna, Berona, Beruna,
> > Verena, Arctopolis,
> > Bern, Stadt, Schweiz
>
> <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bern>:
>
> Nach ersten Siedlungen auf der Engehalbinsel in der
> La-Tène-Zeit und der gallorömischen Epoche wurde die Stadt
> 1191 von Herzog Berchthold V. von Zähringen gegründet.
> Laut einer Sage nannte er die Neugründung Bern, weil er
> dort einen Bären gefangen haben soll. Dies ist jedoch eine
> Volksetymologie. Wahrscheinlicher ist jedoch, dass er die
> Stadt nach Bern, dem damals üblichen deutschen Namen von
> Verona benannte, im Gedenken an den von Berchthold
> verehrten Sagenhelden Dietrich von Bern.
>
> Dietrich's Bern is of course Verona in Italy.
>
> Thanks to the popularity of Dietrich von Berne and his saga,
> of which there is even an ON version (Þiðreks saga af Bern),
> the equation Germ. <Bern> = Lat. <Verona> was
> well-established; the only real question here is why Verona
> came to be called <Bern> in German. <Berna> goes back at
> least to the 10th c. (Thietmar v. Merseburg); Schwarz says
> without explanation that the Goths had already borrowed the
> name as *<Baíruna>. If the borrowing really is that old,
> it's possible that <Verona> had [B], and the closest
> available Gmc. choices were [b] and [w]; if so, the choice
> of [b] is hardly surprising.
>
> > Verona,
> > Beraun, Stadt, Böhmen (Horowitz)
>
> Wikipedia, quoting the 1911 Britannica:
>
> Beroun was originally called na Brode^ (by the ford), and
> received the name of Bern, Berun or Verona in the 13th
> century, when it obtained the privileges of a city from
> the emperor Charles IV, who was specially attached to the
> place, calling it "Verona mea."
>
> By that time the association <Bern> ~ <Verona> was of course
> well-established.
>
> > Bonna, Bunna, Verona, Ubiorum arx,
> > Bonn, Stadt, Preußen (Rheinprovinz)
>
> The application of <Verona> to Bonn is a learned invention
> of the 10th c.: 'cisalpinae Verone, quae usiatius [sic]
> Bunna vocantur' (959 CE). Apparently it was intended to
> give the city a more distinguished past; I've read in
> several places that in the high Middle Ages it was popularly
> believed that <Bonna> had replaced an ancient <Verona>,
> though in fact Tacitus has <castra Bonnensia>.
> <http://www.semafoor.net/niftelungen.htm>
>
> > Barda, -do, Brido, Burda,
> > Wartha, Stadt, Preußen (Schlesien)
>
> <http://www.bardo.info.pl/bardo2/ciekawos.htm> gives <Brido>
> 1096; <Burdan>, <Bardun> 1124; <Gradice Barda> 1155;
> <Bardon>, <Berdow> 1189; <Barda>, <Warda> 1190; <Bardo>
> 1202; <de Bardo>, <Bard> 1207; <Bardo> 1230; <Wartha> 1301;
> <Warta> 1310; <Warthe> 1348; <oppido Warthae in Silesia>
> 1631; <Wartha> 1791; <Brodno>, <Byrdo> 1945; <Warta
> S'la,ska>, <Warta>, <Bardo S'la,skie>, <Bardo> 1946. The
> original name, which seems to have had <B->, will presumably
> have been Slavic, and it appears that the <W-> forms are
> originally German. It was a castle, so the name may have
> been attracted to <Warte> 'watchtower', but see also the
> last entry below (<Wurcza terra> = <Burzenland>).
>
> > Bonsidelia,
> > Wunsiedel, Stadt, Bayern (Oberfranken)
>
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=lOCvcWnF3UwC> has only
> <Wunsidl>, <Wunsidel> 1459, <Wonsidel> 1472. I've not found
> any instance of <Bonsidelia> before the 17th century. Some
> serious research would be needed, but it seems possible that
> it's a post-medieval Latinization predicated on an erroneous
> etymology.
>
> > Bicina,
> > Wieste, Nfl., d. Wömme (Weser), Hannover
>
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=lOCvcWnF3UwC>: <Bicina>
> 788 (Adami Gesta Hamburg.) It's not at all clear that
> the modern name has anything to do with Adam's <Bicina>.
>
> > Westfali, -fala(h)i, -falhii, -faldingi, -phalia,
> > Guestfalia, Bestvalia, Saxones occidentales,
> > Westfalen, ... Preuß. Prov.
>
> <Guestfalia> requires no explanation.
>
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=lOCvcWnF3UwC> has
> <Bestvalia> 1285 from the Continuatio Weichardi de Polhaim);
> this Weichard appears to be the Weichert von Polheim who was
> archbishop of Salzburg from 1312 until his death in 1315.
> <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weichart_von_Polheim>
>
> If the substitution means anything at all, it suggests that
> you should look into Austrian dialects of MHG.
>
> > Wurcza terra,
> > Burzenland, Lschf., Siebenbürgen
>
> <Wurtzenland> in Gebhard Dacher, Die Chroniken der Stadt
> Konstanz, before 1472
> (<http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Bericht_%C3%BCber_Dracole>).
> In the Drakula-Erzählung of the same vintage ('Die histori
> von dem posen Dracol der vil wunders vnd vbels begangen
> hat') it appears as <Wurtzenland>, <Burtzenlant>, and
> <wurtzland>. The similar 'Die geschicht dracole waide',
> 1488, seems to have only <wurtzland>.
> <http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Die_geschicht_dracole_waide>
> The Urkundenbuch der Stadt Lübeck has a document dated 4
> July 1427 'Geben zur Cron in Wurtzland' (at Kronstadt in
> Burzenland).
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=OfsDAAAAYAAJ>
>
> <Wurcza> 1210
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=lOCvcWnF3UwC>, p. 107.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burzenland>:
>
> Burzenland is named after the stream Bârsa (Barca, Burzen,
> 1231: Borza), which flows into the Olt river.
>
> [...]
>
> The German colonists from this region are attested in
> documents as early as 1192 when <terra Bozza> is mentioned
> as being settled by Germans (<Theutonici>).
>
> (For what it's worth, it says that 'Romanian word <bârsä> is
> supposedly of Dacian origin'.)
>
> It does appear that <W-> was a medieval German substitution,
> but it's not clear why it was made.

That's a beautiful piece of research. I wish you would abstain from
unfounded snide remarks, of course I know how unreliable Orbis Latinus
is as a source.

I'm reading Oppenheimer's 'Origin of the British'. He reaches the
conclusion based on genetics that there was no mass extinction in the
Adventus Saxonum, as Gildas claims; at the same time the lack of any
Celtic inscriptions and the lack of Celtic loans in English is a problem.
He therefore claims the East Coast of England must have been
Germanic-speaking before the Adventus Saxonum. He also brings Kuhn's
maps of the extension of Celtic place names relative to Caesar's
Belgian area (book is revised 2007, he might have seen them here), and
acknowledges the existence of that linguistic border, but then says
Kuhn has 'other agenda' and doesn't seem to have gotten the point that
the NWBlock language(s) (the Dreimännerbuch, 'Völker zwischen Germanen
und Kelten' he calls 'The People between Germani and Celts') is
neither Celtic nor Germanic, which leads him to assert, as mentioned,
that Eastern England was Germanic-speaking.
Clearly, it occurs to me, NWBlock or Venetic, identical or not, would
be a better solution. That might also be where the p-words common to
English and Insular Celtic come in. That's why I was wondering whether
there might be some linguistic criterion for identifying old Venetic
ethnic groups at the crossroads of Europe.


Torsten