Re: Ariovistus again

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
> --- On Thu, 6/19/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> Yes, let's look at Ariovistus.
> The Senate called the Aedui 'brothers' of the Roman people
> http://classics. mit.edu/Caesar/ gallic.1. 1.html 33
> no later than 60 BCE
> http://en.wikisourc e.org/wiki/ Letters_to_ Atticus/1. 19
> Caesar in his consulship 59 BCE
> http://www.livius. org/caa-can/ caesar/caesar03. html
> called Ariovistus 'king and friend'.
> http://classics. mit.edu/Caesar/ gallic.1. 1.html 35
> That means Ariovistus can not have been at war with the Aedui in 59
>
> ****GK: Right. Not active, aggressive war.****

Not at war, period. You can't be half pregnant either.

> BCE. He must have been elsewhere before that in the 14 years he had
> been without a roof (ie in 72 - 59 BCE).
>
> ****GK: Non-sequitur.

Sequitur. If he was in Gaul, he would be at war with the Gauls. He was
not at war with them, thus he wasn't in Gaul.

>After winning big in Gaul, he was relatively quiescent there while
>adjusting his Roman relations.

You just made that up. He made it very clear he had nothing to discuss
with Caesar, and his actions against the Aedui, the 'brothers' of the
Romans after their defeat weren't exactly conciliatory.

>Note the interesting fact that when Caesar initially entered Gaul >to

deal with the Helvetii, Ariovistus was not considered a factor >at
all. You didn't even know he existed.****

Interesting point. He must have entered Gaul even later than I
thought, ie. during or after the Helvetii episode.

> On the other hand, Caesar states
> http://classics. mit.edu/Caesar/ gallic.1. 1.html 1
> that the Helvetii were constantly at war with the Germani (ie. in
> the time up to the Gallic War, before 58 BCE),
> ('when they either repel them from their own territories, or
> themselves wage war on their frontiers', Latin 'in eorum finibus')
> from whom they were separated by the Rhine
> http://classics. mit.edu/Caesar/ gallic.1. 1.html 2
> In other words the Helvetii were at war with someone, and losing, in
> Southern Germany, an area where they had earlier prevailed.
> http://www.fordham. edu/halsall/ basis/tacitus- germanygord. html
> Part II, section 3
> I suggest that Ariovistus was active in Southern Germany at the
> time, colonizing it(?).
>
> ****GK: There were other Germani besides Ariovistus.*****

No, they came with Ariovistus and later. The people of Southern
Germany before that, the Helvetii beat the crap out of. Something must
have happened, they changed.


Torsten