--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> > > In the framework of this theory the direction of loan could
> > > very well be the opposite; it just predicts that, that from
> > > prehistoric times there are Vasconic loanwords in Latin. These
> > > are, it must be said, only detectable as such in the fortunate
> > > case in which they in spite of three thousand years of further
> > > development of both languages can be explained from the present
> > > Basque. Latin 'ca:seus' "cheese" is such a loanword.'
> >
> > [end of citation]
> >
> > No it is not, since intervocalic -s- was rhotacized in the 4th
> > cent. BCE in Latin. Like <balteus>, <clipeus>, <puteus>, and
> > several others, <ca:seus> probably comes from Sabine (or the
> > "rustic" Sabino-Latin dialect) after the rhotacism. Since Sabine
> > was a P-Italic language, an inherited reflex of *kwa:t(h)- (better
> > *kweH2tH2-) should have begun with /p/.
>
> I think you are confusing PIE *kw- with PIE *kW-. But Slavic kvasU-
> points to *kWw- which really doesn't make much sense either. I think
> we must give up the hope of a direct descent.
>
> > Sabine itself probably borrowed the word from an IE language which
> > reduced */kw/ to /k/.
>
> Why not dump Sabine altogether then?
>
>
> If the ancestor ultimately is PIE *kwat-, it's difficult to argue
> that it had -s- at the time of the Latin rhotacization. It might
> have been *kwat-jo- > *kwatso- > *katso- > *ka:syo- cf. caussa >
> causa without rhotacization. Note also unusual metathesis -tz- <>
> -zt- in Basque.
I think I'll improve that to
*kWat-jo- > *kWatsjo- > *katsjo- > *ka:sjo- > (loan to Latin) ca:seu-
and
*kWatsjo- > *kWatso- > *kwatso- (loan to PPSlavic) > *kwasu-
> If the interpretation of the first element of the recurring
> ekupetaris as cognate with PIE *ekWo- is correct then Po-Venetic had
> *kW- > k-.
>
Now suppose that the semantics isn't "salt" > "salted cheese" but that
the "salt" and "cheese" is from something third?
The one thing that recurs in the manufacturing process of the less
primitive varietes of both is crushing.
Early manufactured salt was transported as salt cakes, solid slabs;
this is still how it's transported across the Sahara.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_salt
(not mentioned in either)
Most cheeses, except a few ones, are cut up into small pieces.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese
So is the bread in kvass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvass
Ernout-Meillet:
'quatio:, -i:s (parfait inusité; Cicéron emploie à la place
quate-fe:ci, Ep. ad Brut.1,10,4; les composés ont un pft. -cussi:,
concussi:, percussi:), quassum, quatere:
secouer (surtout poétique; la prose classique emploie un composé).
Ancien (Enn.), classique, mais presque uniquement poétique à l' époq.
impériale; la prose préfère le composé d'aspect déterminé concutio:,
ou l'intensif quasso:.
Le pcp. quassus a pris le sens fort de "brisé (à force de secousses),
mis en pièces, cassé": aula quassa, quassa uox, etc., sens conservé
dans les l. romanes, M.L.6942 (et peut-être dû à un rapprochement avec
ca:ssus de cado:).
De quassus dérive l'itératif-intensif quasso:,-a:s "agiter fortement
ou sans cesse", sens transitif et absolu: quassa:re caput "branler la
tête", mais quassanti: capite "la tête branlante". Comme quassus,
quassa:re a aussi le sens de "briser"; harundo quassata, Vulg.
Matt.12,20; de là fr. "casser", cf. M.L.6939. D'autres formes romanes
supposent aussi des dérivés *quassia:re, *quassica:re, *quatita:re
M.L.6940, 6941, 6944a.
Le substantif de quatio:, quassus est à peine attesté (Pac. ap.
Cic.Tu.1,21,50): on dit plutôt quassa:tio:, qui est du reste assez
rare. De quasso: dérivent encore quassa:bilis, quassa:bundus,
quassa:tu:ra, quassa:tipennae (Varr.), tous rares.
Composés en -cutio:: concutio:: secouer violemment (sens physique et
moral); d'où "terroriser" dans la l. des jurisconsultes, e.g. Paul.
Sent.5,25,12: qui insignibus altioris ordinis utuntur militiamque
confingunt quo quem terreant uel concutiant. De là concussio: "exactio
per uim facta", qui semble surtout s'être dit des exactions commises
par les soldats, concussor, concussu:ra (Tert.), cf. l'emploi tardif
de diaseío: en grec (N.T. Luc.3,14); decutio:: faire tomber en
secouant; discutio: = dieaseío: "écarter ou détacher en secouant,
lézarder, dissiper"; et au sens figuré: 1° "écarter, rendre vain"; 2°
"fouiller, débrouiller"; et finalement, dans la l. de l'Église,
traduit le gr. eksetazo: "examiner, inspecter". Même évolution dans
discussio:, discussor. Discussio: est dans Macrobe, Somn.Scip.1,16,8,
avec le sens de disputa:tio:; dans la chancellerie du Bas-Empire, le
mot désigne la révision des revenus publics dans une province;
discussor, le magistrat chargé de cette révision, Discussus au
contraire signifie dans Pline "agitation, fait de secouer". Discutere
est conservé dans le v. fr. descourre, M.L.2665; excutio: (prononcé
esc-): faire tomber ou chasser en secouant. Employé aussi au sens
figuré "examiner" (= exqui:rere), M.L. 2998; et 2995 excussa, 2996
excussio:, 2997 excusso:rium, 3000 *excutula:re; incutio:: enfoncer en
secouant, secouer, brandir contre, sur. Au sens moral = inicere;
incutere metum alicui: (s'emploie surtout des sentiments violents:
peur, terreur, désarroi, etc.); percut io:: traverser en frappant;
puis simplement "frapper". A fourni son pft. et son pcp. à ferio:
(comme i:co:, dans une moindre mesure); et a tendu par la suite à
remplacer même au présent i:co: et ferio:; ainsi dans la latinité
impériale: percutere foedus (au lieu de feri:re), Just. 42, 3,4; p.
argentum, Suét.Aug.34. S'emploie aussi, comme ferio:, fr. "taper",
dans le sens de "duper" (v. concutio:), cf.Cic.Att.5,2,3. Dérivés:
percussio:, -sor, -su:ra (tardif); percussus,-u:s; percussibilis,
percussio:na:lis. - Percutere est demeuré dans les 1. hispaniques,
M.L. 6402; repercutio:: faire rebondir, réfléchir (la lumière),
répercuter (un son); et aussi au sens moral, "repousser ";
repercussus, -sio:, -sibilis; praecutio:: brandir en avant (Ov.);
recutio:: faire rebondir ou résonner; secouer en arrière,
recussus,-u:s, recussa:bilis (Cael. Aur.). Demeuré en esp. et en
port., M.L.7140; succutio:: secouer par en dessous, M.L.8413; de là
succussio:,-sus,-sor,-su:ra.
De quasso:: conquasso:, succusso: (Acc. ap. Non. 16,29), M.L.8412a.
On rapproche souvent gr. pásso: "je répands". Mais le sens est tout
différent. Les autres rapprochements proposés sont encore moins
plausibles.'
Dansk Etymologisk Ordbog:
'II. kvase v., dial.
1. "walk in soft/wet terrain producing a resounding sloshing sound"
2. "squeeze, press, crush soft things"
3. "become crushed"
Da.dial. also kvasse,
Sw.dial. kvasa "splash, slosh",
MLG quas(s)en, quatzen "eat, devour"
Germ. quatschen "make a sloshing sound"
in ablaut relationship to kvæste
cf II kvas, I kvase, kvaske
II kvas "squashing sound; crushed mass", MDa, Nw. id. stem of II kvase
cf I kvas
I kvas n. n. "dry, thin branches",
MDa. kvass,
No, Sw.dial. kvas, from PIE *gWos-, ablaut form of *gWes-, see kost
["broom"]. Acc. to another theory id. to II kvas (or ell. from
kvasbrænde [brænde "firewood"]?) and then org. "firewood squshed together"
kvæste "injure by hitting, crush, maim, hurt";
No. kveste,
reshaped from MDa. ppp kvæst to the inf. kvæsse which - as the corr.
Sw. form kväsa 'humiliate, dominate, keep down" - is borrowed from MLG
quessen, quetsen "crush, damage, injure", corr. to MHG quetzen, German
quetschen "squash, crush, injure";
to PIE *gWedh- "push, injure, destroy";
like e.g.
Da. II kvase,
Lith. gendù, gesti "be injured, destroy",
Greek dénnos "humiliation, shame"
Sanskr. gandh- "push, stab, injure"'
and of course Engl. quash, squash, squeeze are part of that
It is very tempting to propose a common loan source for the Latin and
German *kwat- roots, and their use in "(quashed) salt" and "(quashed)
cheese" . Of course something should be done about the correspondences
to the descendants of PIE *gWedh-.
In the meanwhile:
DEO III has n. in the expr 'få has på' ["take out, eliminate for
good]" MDa., Nw., Sw.dial. id.; v.stem of II hasse
II hasse v. (dial.) "få has på,; keep down, suppress". Of uncertain
origin, possibly same origin as I hasse
I hasse v. (dial.) "chase away by shouting" deriv. from IV has
Engl.dial. huss "get a dog to attack"'
Last one not very likely, I'd say.
Instead I propose the are the regular Germanic reflexes of what appear
elsewhere as derived from the loan *kWat(-jo)-. Cf. also
DEO
'hav ["sea"] n.n. ODa haf, Nw., Swhav, ON haf n., MLG haf (whence
German Haff "coastal lake"), MHG hap, gen. habes n. "sea; harbor",
OFri hef, OE hæf; from Gmc. *hafa- n., ... etc
kvag n. (litt.), in the expr. i kvag "to the bottom; into pieces",
adopted from MDa i kvag, which a reshape of ODa. i kvaff "in the sea",
corr. to Sw. i kvav "to the bottom, to perdition, into pieces"; from
Sw. kvav "suffocation, pressure", Nw.dial. kvav "low breath capacity",
to Sw. kväva "strangle, keep down, supress", No.dial. kvbeva
"strangle, suppress", ON kvefja and (with analogically lost -v-)kefja
"dive, immerse", cf. ON kaf "deep of the sea", cf I kave, baptist'
Again, loan *kva-, 'regular' *ha-?
Torsten