Re: Scientist's etymology vs. scientific etymology

Well, you rush to your linguist friend's defence, as I thought you would. I can agree that greek could very well be the origin of germanic word butter but there's also the chance it could have taken the course via latin from another language without greek being the "middle man". Etymonline.com doesn't rule out the chance that the greek word is folk etymology of a scythian word. Who knows, maybe the same schythians gave the proto-germanic peoples their word at the same time as the greeks got their word? After all, etymology isn't the truth, it's only a set of theories which in some cases happen to fit the fact.

Maybe I should be more precise about why I doubt the "official" etymology of the word church. First of all, the word originates in the western hemisphere of Europe. I believe it has more to do with a relative of the word circle. Second, why did the germanic peoples of all bother to use a word to translate the word ecclesia if that word they used was a word from another language in the first place. This is illogical. Germans did take words from latin en masse but they did not exchange them for another until centuries later when the origin of the words were forgotten. I do, however, believe that a word like church would be kept in mind if it was a new one in the years when churches were being built.

Here's a text from site where the greek origin is being dealt with:

http://www.takeourword.com/Issue036.html

From Paul Hansen:

I have found a bit of info on the roots to the word church, some very interesting. I am especially interested to see if there is any foundation to the word being connected to the Latin word circus. This is what I found so far:

"The derivation of the word is generally said to be from the Greek kyriakon, 'belonging to the Lord'. But the derivation has been too hastily assumed. It is probably connected with kirk, the Latin circus, circulus and the Greek kyklos, because the congregations were gathered in circles."

I don't know any other resources on that so hope you can help.

Phew, what a tough question! The history of church is one of the most contentious etymologies in the English language. Almost all modern scholars are in agreement that it derives from the Greek kyriakon "of the Lord" but the matter is by no means settled. We find your quotation somewhat amusing, though. The question of whether it has a Greek or a Latin origin has been hotly debated since Walafrid Strabo first asked it in the 9th century. We fail to see how something determined after a thousand years of discussion could be "too hastily assumed".

There is no evidence to support the statement that "congregations were gathered in circles" so an origin in the Latin circus ("race-track", literally "circle, circuit") or the Greek kyklos ("wheel, circle") seems less than likely. Moreover, if the English church has its origin in circus, why did Latin itself use the words ecclesia or basilica? Conversely, why do we find so many* cognates of church in the Germanic languages but none at all in those languages which developed from Latin?

One theory which Paul's source does not mention is that church comes from the Gothic kelikn, "tower, upper chamber". This word was originally Gaulish and hence Celtic in origin but, as with the Romance languages, all modern Celtic languages take their word for church from the Latin ecclesia.

* For the incorrigibly pedantic, the cognates of church include: Western Germanic kirika, Old Saxon kirika, kerika, Middle Low German and Middle Dutch kerke, Dutch kerk, Low German kerke, karke, kark, Old Frisian szereke, szurke, tzierka, tziurk, Old High German churihha, (also chiriihha, chiricha, khirihha, kirihha, kiricha, later chircha), Old Norse kirkia, kyrkja, Swedish kyrka, Danish kirke. (And that is without including cognates from the Slavic languages.)

Carl Hult

Brian M. Scott:

At 8:51:55 AM on Thursday, June 5, 2008, Carl Hult wrote:

> We all know what folk etymology is and how it works. Today
> I will add another word to the list, scientist´s
> etymology. The distinction between scientist's etymology
> and scientific etymology is that the former is where the
> facts are being doctored to fit the the theory, based on
> an assumption made by the scientist rather than letting
> facts speak for themselves. I also call this wishful
> thinking. Examples of scientist's etymology are butter,
> church, rush and cheese.

> The first word, butter, may be a close call since the
> greeks actually had a word called boutyron, lit.
> "cowcheese" but I still feel that this is wishful thinking
> on the linguist's part. The greeks didn't use butter in
> the same way other people in Europe did and if ever, the
> greeks got this word from elsewhere, not giving it away to
> other languages. It may even be a folk etymology word in
> Greece, adapted to fit the notion of "cow cheese"

The chain from Gk. <boúturon> to Lat. <butyrum> to e.g. OE
<butere> looks pretty straightforward.

> Church is one of the "holy" words in etymology. Once
> attested in greek, "kyriakon doma", and it's enough to
> send the linguists to seventh heaven.

From the OED s.v. <church>:

[T]here is now a general agreement among scholars in
referring it to the Greek word <ku:riakón>, properly adj.
'of the Lord, dominicum, dominical' (f. <kú:rios> lord),
which occurs, from the 3rd century at least, used
substantively (sc. <dô:ma>, or the like) = 'house of the
Lord', as a name of the Christian house of worship. Of
this the earliest cited instances are in the Apostolical
Constitutions (II. 59), a 300, the edict of Maximinus
(303-13), cited by Eusebius (Eccl. Hist. IX. 10) a 324,
the Councils of Ancyra 314 (Canon 15), Neo-Cæsarea 314-23
(Can. 5), and Laodicea (Can. 28). Thenceforward it appears
to have been in fairly common use in the East: e.g.,
Constantine named several churches built by him <kuriaká>
(Eusebius De Laud. Const. xvii).

The article further discusses how the Gk. name might have
entered WGmc.

> Well, this phrase was written well before there even was a
> missionary mission among the germanic peoples

One would certainly hope so, since WGmc. apparently acquired
the word rather early.

> and only in terms of the lord taking a seat in the holy
> building. I'm sorry, this isn't evidence enough. If ever
> the germanic word for church comes from another source it
> would certainly come from a celtic one, meaning circle
> where sacrosanct rites were being conducted. Most
> historians in a club where I am a member agree with me on
> this.

Evidently they are not linguists.

[...]

> Cheese is another golden calf in the world of etymology.
> "Such luck that latin had caseus. Now we can wrestle the
> germanic words to fit the theory that the word for hard
> cheese came from the latin word!" The celtic languages has
> this word too and I do believe reading something about the
> celts being the first in Europe to make hard cheese...

Early Irish <cáise>, like the WGmc. words, is an early
borrowing of Latin <ca:seus>. Derivation of the WGmc. words
from an early loan from Latin isn't problematic (apart from
the odd case of WSax. <cy:se>). Your emphasis on 'hard'
seems quite arbitrary.

Brian

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