Re: Scientist's etymology vs. scientific etymology

--- "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:

> At 8:51:55 AM on Thursday, June 5, 2008, Carl Hult
> wrote:
>
> > We all know what folk etymology is and how it
> works. Today
> > I will add another word to the list, scientist´s
> > etymology. The distinction between scientist's
> etymology
> > and scientific etymology is that the former is
> where the
> > facts are being doctored to fit the the theory,
> based on
> > an assumption made by the scientist rather than
> letting
> > facts speak for themselves. I also call this
> wishful
> > thinking. Examples of scientist's etymology are
> butter,
> > church, rush and cheese.
>
> > The first word, butter, may be a close call since
> the
> > greeks actually had a word called boutyron, lit.
> > "cowcheese" but I still feel that this is wishful
> thinking
> > on the linguist's part. The greeks didn't use
> butter in
> > the same way other people in Europe did and if
> ever, the
> > greeks got this word from elsewhere, not giving it
> away to
> > other languages. It may even be a folk etymology
> word in
> > Greece, adapted to fit the notion of "cow cheese"
>
> The chain from Gk. <boúturon> to Lat. <butyrum> to
> e.g. OE
> <butere> looks pretty straightforward.

He's not denying that. He saying that boúteron is a
folk-etymology in Greek. Is that possible? Could it be
a Thracian or Dacian word?

>
> > Church is one of the "holy" words in etymology.
> Once
> > attested in greek, "kyriakon doma", and it's
> enough to
> > send the linguists to seventh heaven.
>
> From the OED s.v. <church>:
>
> [T]here is now a general agreement among scholars
> in
> referring it to the Greek word <ku:riakón>,
> properly adj.
> 'of the Lord, dominicum, dominical' (f. <kú:rios>
> lord),
> which occurs, from the 3rd century at least, used
> substantively (sc. <dô:ma>, or the like) = 'house
> of the
> Lord', as a name of the Christian house of
> worship. Of
> this the earliest cited instances are in the
> Apostolical
> Constitutions (II. 59), a 300, the edict of
> Maximinus
> (303-13), cited by Eusebius (Eccl. Hist. IX. 10) a
> 324,
> the Councils of Ancyra 314 (Canon 15), Neo-Cæsarea
> 314-23
> (Can. 5), and Laodicea (Can. 28). Thenceforward it
> appears
> to have been in fairly common use in the East:
> e.g.,
> Constantine named several churches built by him
> <kuriaká>
> (Eusebius De Laud. Const. xvii).
>
> The article further discusses how the Gk. name might
> have
> entered WGmc.
>
> > Well, this phrase was written well before there
> even was a
> > missionary mission among the germanic peoples
>
> One would certainly hope so, since WGmc. apparently
> acquired
> the word rather early.
>
> > and only in terms of the lord taking a seat in the
> holy
> > building. I'm sorry, this isn't evidence enough.
> If ever
> > the germanic word for church comes from another
> source it
> > would certainly come from a celtic one, meaning
> circle
> > where sacrosanct rites were being conducted. Most
> > historians in a club where I am a member agree
> with me on
> > this.
>
> Evidently they are not linguists.

Agreed. Western European languages have words for
mosque, and have had them for over 1,000 years, even
though they're spoken in non-Islamic societies.

> [...]
>
> > Cheese is another golden calf in the world of
> etymology.
> > "Such luck that latin had caseus. Now we can
> wrestle the
> > germanic words to fit the theory that the word for
> hard
> > cheese came from the latin word!" The celtic
> languages has
> > this word too and I do believe reading something
> about the
> > celts being the first in Europe to make hard
> cheese...
>
> Early Irish <cáise>, like the WGmc. words, is an
> early
> borrowing of Latin <ca:seus>. Derivation of the
> WGmc. words
> from an early loan from Latin isn't problematic
> (apart from
> the odd case of WSax. <cy:se>). Your emphasis on
> 'hard'
> seems quite arbitrary.

It's a red herring. Cheese is cheese. Most people
don't know the difference.

>
> Brian
>
>
>