Re: Re[8]: [tied] Re: PIE initial *a

--- Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@... ca> wrote:
> -----
> My contention is that what is denoted as [a] in
> languages like Italian and French is closer to what
> is denoted as [æ] in English (apart from where it
> is pronounced [Ea] or [E&] or [I&]) than what is
> denoted as /a/ in American English (and denoted as
> [A.] in RP and realized as [A] in Canadian English).
> When Americans use their /a/ (in <pot>, <father>)
> for Italian [a], it does not sound like the Italian
> [a], to my ear at least, being articulated
> noticeably further back than the Italian sound; note
> also that in my experience many Spanish and Italian
> speakers substitute their [a] for our [æ], but not
> for our [A] (or American /a/). I think our [æ] has
> the tongue position of Italian [a] but maybe not the
> height, while American /a/ has the height of Italian
> [a] but usually not the same tongue position (front
> or back).(Of course, some substitute [E] for our
> [æ], but I do not usually hear them use [a] for our
> [A] (or /a/), I'm pretty sure I more often hear them
> use [O] (at least
> Italians, and also Russians) -- but of course this
> is all subjective and can vary between individuals
> and according to education, experience, etc., not to
> mention whether I am a good enough judge of these
> sounds. This is all just my impression.
> Andrew
>
This does strike me as odd.
I heard /ae/ pronounced as /e/ by Spanish speakers

e.g. "man" as /men, meN/

____

I think that is because _probably_ most North Americans do not have the same vowel in "mat" as they do in "man": the former is [mæt] (very similar to [mat] for many) while the latter is [mEan] or [mE:n] or [mean] or [mIan] or mE&n or [me&n] or [mI&n].  The latter Spanish speakers hear as /e/, while the former Spanish speakers I think, at least the majority,  hear as /a/, because they (or the majority, I think) will pronounce it /mat/.  _However_ , as I have maintained earlier, from what I have heard,  many Americans use [Ea]/[E:]/[ea]/[Ia]/[E&]/[e&]/[I&] in all positions, including where many other Americans have the simple vowel [æ] (heard as [a] by many Spanish speakers).  This may account for some Spanish speakers using /met/ for "mat" (but I would think it would be a minority of Spanish speakers).

I hear American English /a/ as a shorter /a/ --which
leads me to perceive Am E <a> of father as /a:/.

__________

Don't think I understand what you're saying here - do you mean you distinguish between the vowel of "pot" and the vowel of "father"?

In NE US English I've heard /I/ come out as /E/ as
/kEdz/ instead of /kIdz/. When my daughters were in
prep school in MA, they picked that up, along with
/hows/ for "house", and /h@.../ for "home"

I've noticed a similar trend, especially among teenaged or twentysomething girls, but also in New York state, of pronouncing /E/ as [æ], noticeably more open than the rest of the population (even while these New Yorkers will pronounce /æ/ as a closer vowel than their more open /E/, namely [ea] or the other diphthongs/long vowel I mentioned above).  But what sound is @? What I notice particularly among younger people, but also some older, is pronouncing /oU/ (as in "home") as [&U], thus pretty much as in RP.   I think it tends to be a class/social distinction, the more "cool" or "in" young people using [&U].  I hear this and the more open /E/ also in Canada among young people,  particularly young girls/women.

The [hows] pronunciation, AFAIK, is common among chiefly less-educated people in many parts of Canada, where it is a variety of the commonly-heard [hVws] (the so-called, but inaccurate, "oot" for "out" phenomenon), compared to [aw] before voiced consonants (e.g. [lawd] "loud" but [lVwt] "lout" -- similarly [aj] before voiced consonants versus [Vj] before voiceless consonants ("ride" vs. "right").

Another thing that I have noticed frequently in parts of Canada is that the vowel [Ar] as in "card" becomes pronounced [Vr] with a higher back vowel.  I usually hear this pronunciation among the same people who pronounce  [hows] for "house", but also among others.

Andrew