From: george knysh
Message: 58321
Date: 2008-05-03
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh****GK:
> <gknysh@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > BTW
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemetes
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niemcza
> > >
> > > That would make sense if the Nemetes had come
> all the way from
> > > Przeworsk-land with Ariovistus. The question is
> then: how close
> > > would the Slavs have to have been at the time A.
> left with them
> > > for that to be their designation for Germanic?
> > >
> > >
> > > Torsten
> >
> >
> > ****GK: I don't think the Nemetes have anything to
> do
> > with the "Nemtsi/Nimtsi" of the later Slavs.
>
> I do. 1 - 1.
>
>
> > I agree with Kortlandt and Shchukin: it is
> impossible to
> > identify a "Slavic" group as of your mentioned
> dates <72-58 BCE>.
>
> ?? Please explain.
>http://www.springerlink.com/content/c3ht013txp686v71/
>
>
> > There is also an interesting recent
> > genetic study which locates the "Slavic homeland"
> > somewhere in the basin of the Dnipro/Dnepr: cf.
> >
> >
>
> >=== message truncated ===
> > Some interesting quotes:
> >
> > Localisation of the Slavic homeland prior to their
> > great expansion in the fifth to sixth centuries is
> one
> > of the key problems of European history in the
> first
> > millennium AD. Although it is assumed that
> > prehistorically the original habitat of Slavs was
> > Asia, from which they migrated in the third or
> second
> > millennium BC to populate parts of Eastern Europe
> > (Encyclopædia Britannica 2006), a debate
> concerning
> > the European homeland of Slavs seems to remain
> > unsolved. Because Slavs unequivocally enter the
> > records of history as late as the sixth century
> AD,
> > when their expansion in Eastern Europe was already
> > advanced, different theories concerning the Slavs'
> > geographic origin based on archaeological,
> > anthropological and/or linguistic data have been
> > formulated. Two such theories have gained the
> largest
> > support among the scientists (Schenker 1995), one
> > placing the cradle of Slavs in the watershed of
> the
> > Vistula and Oder rivers (present-day Poland), and
> the
> > other locating it in the watershed of the middle
> > Dnieper (present-day Ukraine). Our results
> indicate
> > that using the population-of-origin approach based
> on
> > the AMOVA, as many as nine (P > 0.05) or ten (P >
> > 0.01) populations can be traced back to the lands
> of
> > present-day Ukraine, including Eastern-Slavic
> Russians
> > and Belarusians, Western-Slavic Poles and Slovaks,
> and
> > Southern-Slavic Slovenes and Croats. On the other
> > hand, the Polish population gave insignificant F
> ST
> > values in pairwise comparisons with only one (i.e.
> > Ukrainians) or three (i.e. Ukrainians, Slovaks,
> and
> > Lusatians) populations (P > 0.05 or 0.01,
> > respectively). Moreover, the Y-STR genetic
> distance
> > between Poles and Belarusians, who are geographic
> > neighbours (Table 1), excludes significant gene
> flow
> > between the two populations and localisation of
> > Belarusians' ancestors in present-day Poland.
> >
> > In conclusion, we have demonstrated that Y-STR
> > haplotype distribution divides Slavs into two
> > genetically distant groups: one encompassing all
> > Western Slavs, Eastern Slavs, Slovenes and Western
> > Croats, and the other involving all remaining
> Southern
> > Slavs. Many northern Slavic populations are
> > genetically indistinguishable in regard to the
> > nine-locus Y-STR haplotype variation, and this
> > homogeneity extends from the Alps to the upper
> Volga,
> > and even as far as the Pacific Ocean (eastern
> Russia),
> > regardless of linguistic, cultural and historical
> > affiliations of the Slavic ethnicities. The
> example of
> > Slovaks and Belarusians shows that this
> homogeneity is
> > likely to be extended to other Y-chromosomal
> > microsatellites as well. Results of the
> > interpopulation Y-STR haplotype analysis exclude a
> > significant contribution of ancient tribes
> inhabiting
> > present-day Poland to the gene pool of Eastern and
> > Southern Slavs, and suggest that the Slavic
> expansion
> > started from present-day Ukraine, thus supporting
> the
> > hypothesis that places the earliest known homeland
> of
> > Slavs in the basin of the middle Dnieper. To our
> > knowledge, this is the first report on the use of
> > genetic markers in solving the question of the
> > localisation of the Slavic homeland.
> >
> > ***The observed northern Slavic Y-STR genetic
> > homogeneity extends from Slovakia and Ukraine to
> parts
> > of Russia and Belarus, but also involves
> > Southern-Slavic populations of Slovenia and
> western
> > Croatia, and is the most probably due to a
> homogeneous
> > genetic substrate inherited from the ancestral
> Slavic
> > population. However, due to the Y-STR proximity of
> > linguistically and geographically Southern-Slavic
> > Slovenes and western Croats to the northern Slavic
> > branch, the observed genetic differentiation
> cannot
> > simply be explained by the separation of both
> > Slavic-speaking groups by the non-Slavic
> Romanians,
> > Hungarians, and German-speaking Austrians.
> > A similar difference has been previously reported
> > between Bulgarians and a few other Slavic
> populations
> > (Roewer et al. 2005), and our results demonstrate
> that
> > other Southern-Slavic populations, namely
> Macedonians,
> > Serbs, Bosnians, and northern Croats are
> genetically
> > distinct from their northern linguistic relatives
> as
> > well.
> > ....
> >
> > the contribution of the Y chromosomes of peoples
> who
> > settled in the region before the Slavic expansion
> to
> > the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs is the most
> > likely explanation for this phenomenon. On the
> other
> > hand, our results indicate no significant genetic
> > traces of pre-sixth-century inhabitants of
> present-day
> > Slovenia in the Slovene Y chromosome genetic pool.
>
> > ******
>
> Here's a nice compromise which saves faces for both
> theories:
> Przeworsk and Zarubyntsi meant interpenetration of
> (Proto-Proto-)Germanic and (Proto-Proto-)Slavic
> speaking groups (while
> squeezing the Veneti); the Slavs reaching up to the
> Venetic Nemetes
> around Niemcza/Nimptsch (< *nemét-skV), which then
> become
> Germanic-speaking, and the name is transmitted back
> east.
> Some activist joker arrives from the east and gets
> people (the *Sl/ewi
> "the independents", and the Nemetes etc) to join him
> on a ver sacrum
> against the decadent Celts, the Slavic *Xorwté-s
> choose to stay behind
>