Re: beyond langauges

On Sat, 3 May 2008 10:45:21 +0200, "fournet.arnaud"
<fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Anders R. Joergensen" <ollga_loudec@...>
>
>>How do you then explain the palatalization of *l in vieille etc.?
>>And OFr. vielz < vetulus presupposes a palatalized *-lj- (< *-kl-),
>>in order to get <z> /ts/, not simple <s> /s/.
>=====
>Vielz with z was different form tel with tels.
>so there were two -l-
>What is the relevance of that in proving that vielz < supposedly *veklu-s
>
>Next :
>Northern French has :
>traval = travail
>pal = paille
>viel = vieille
>There is no palatalization here.
>
>And I don't understand the one-way-round trip :
>dental > velar > palatalized
>What about remaining at the same place :
>vetulu> velyu can do it.
>dental > palatalized.
>
>Old French is about more palatal and front consonants,
>not about more velar consonants.
>
>MAybe vetulu > veklu explains Italian well,
>I cannot see how this story fits in Old French landscape.
>
>Arnaud
>============
>>
>>There are admittedly some words that seem to follow a different path,
>>with -tul- > -Dl- > -ll-.
>>Anders
>==========
>For example ?

spat(u)la > espalle > épaule, mod(u)lu > molle, moule.

Bourciez "Phonétique française", §145:

"Quand ils sont de constitution tardive, les groupes tl et
dl, qui n'étaient pas originaires en latin, ont éprouvé en
français un effacement de la dentale par assimilation
[spatula, modulu, etc.]"

"Lorsque le groupe tl s'était formé de bonne heure en latin
vulgaire, il y avait passé à cl: au IIIe siècle, l'Appendix
Probi interdit déjà les formes veclu (= vetulum) et sicla (=
situla) devenues en fr. vieil, seille, par une
transformation qui concerne les gutturales (cf. §133, 2)"

"Les mots comme épître (= epistula), chapitre (= capitulum),
apôtre (= apostolu), où tl est devenu tr, sont des mots
savants d'introduction tardive et liturgique."

In French, tl > kl (vetulu > veclu) and original kl (oculu >
oclu) and gl (vigilare > ve.glare) merged, and after a vowel
in the Inlaut, the result is /gl/ > /Gl/ > /jl/ > /l^/ (with
(k >) g > j, same as in pacare > payer, paganu > païen). So
we have (O)Fr. vieil, vieille, ueil and veiller.

In Picardie, palatalized /l^/ became simple /l/ in final
position. In Standard French, /l^/ later gave /j/.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
miguelc@...