Re: That old Odin scenario ...

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Zarubyntsi it is then.
> > I can't figure out from the Wikipedia article
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture
> > whether Zarubyntsi is a successor to Milograd or a
> > competitor?
>
> ****GK: It gobbled up most of Milograd along both
> banks of the Pripet in the 3rd c.BCE, and expanded
> into the upper Dnipro basin(apart from its other
> holdings).****

Nice. I propose that Milograd was Finnic, then. That'll give us the
Finnnic substrate I need for Slavic.

> > Chernyakov, the successor to the Zarubyntsi (on its territory)
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture
> > must have been at least bilingual Slavic/Gothic, right?
>
> ****GK: Possibly on the northern border, where
> "Kyivans" and "Chernyakhovites" territorially
> intermingled. The emerging Slavic element was
> represented by the "Kyivan culture", a partial
> successor to Late Zarubintsy (with northern components
> added).

Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_culture
thinks Chernyakhov was too.

Chernyakhiv was the continuation of Wielbark,

I think you mean extension. Territorially the Kiev culture seems to
have been the successor of Zarubyntsi.

> plus interaction with some locals. It pushed out
> whatever remained of Zarubintsy, and later also pushed
> out the "Kyivans" who were east of the Dnipro in the
> forest-steppe zone(this in the 4th c., in Hermanaric's
> time)****
> >
> > Why is Przeworsk and Zarubintsy seen as one complex
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture
> > if there was absolutely no exchange of upper crust?
>
> ****GK: Probably because they are both basically
> "LaTenized" cultures.

There must have been more.

> Other authors say the same about
> Zarubintsy and Poeneshti-Lukashovka.****

I can locate the rest of the cultures in Wikipedia at least but the
last one stumps me. I get a few hits on Poienesti and Lukashevka. Do
you have some canonical spelling for it or possibly an URL (with map,
thank you)?

> > And how do you get (according to orthodoxy) a Germanic-speaking
> > and a Slavic-speaking culture to be part of the same complex? That
> > doesn't make any sense.
>
> *****GK: It doesn't. This is an older idea, now being abandoned.

Why, on both counts?

> The Slavs are now seen to have developed in
> more northern (forest and non LaTenized) contexts,
> with the "Kyivan culture" (emerging slowly after ca.
> 50CE)as the first identifiably Slavic phenomenon
> (since it clearly develops into indubitably Slavic
> cultures). Przeworsk, Poeneshti-Lukashovka, Zarubintsy
> are now seen as basically Germanic (with other
> assimilated components being Venet(d)ic, Dacian,
> Baltic, Scythian("Thrakoid")****

Przeworsk and Zarubyntsi are both Germanic? You just said the only
thing they had in common was that they were Latènized?

I think you'd get a more consistent model assuming the Slavic
component started to become dominant numerically.

> > Also, what I can't understand is that if the only thing that
> > separates the Lubieszewo graves from their surrounding culture
> > is the expensive Roman grave goods, why can't they be related to
> > the graves further east which are characterised by similar Roman
> > grave goods? One book I read drew up a shortlist of candidates for
> > possible origin of the Lubieszewo graves: 1. Romans, 2. East
> > Germani, 3. Celts. No eastern candidates. Why?
>
> ****GK: Perhaps because what you call "the graves further east which
> are characterised by similar Roman grave goods" are clearly Aorsan,
> Alanic, Maeotic (Sindic), or of other local cultures,

In what sense clearly etc? That they consist of Roman expensive stuff
and local cheap stuff like the Lubieszewo graves, or how?

> and had representatives thereof moved west some evidence of
> this would have been found in the L.type burials
> besides Roman imports.*****

You mean so that the graves would look 'vaguely Sarmatian'?
Could you tell me what type of objects that would be? It would have to
be in the 'expensive stuff' department. On the other hand, if you have
a thoroughly Romanized upper class, like that of the Bosporan kingdom,
what would they (or their wives) want to carry several hundred km's
other than their beloved useless wine-taster sets, which Grandad might
as well get with him in his grave, since no one used it any more,
since the family never made it back to the warm countries?


Torsten