From: george knysh
Message: 57947
Date: 2008-04-24
> graves****GK: I thought it would help focus your attention.
> > of Lubieszewo itself are clearly a part of the
> Gustow
> > group, which is NOT PRZEWORSK but something
> > intermediary between Wielbark and Elbe. This is
> the
> > conclusion of professional archaeologists.
>
> They ARE SITUATED in the Gustow group.
> Are you beginning on the capital letter thing too
> now?
> Tell me what's wrong in this paragraph then (from****GK: I repeat another piece of information you have
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_Antiquity ):
> 'The evolution of the power structure within the
> Germanic societies in
> Poland and elsewhere can be traced to some degree by
> examining the
> "princely" graves - burials of chiefs, and even
> hereditary princes, as
> the consolidation of power progressed. Those appear
> from the beginning
> of the Common Era and are located away from ordinary
> cemeteries,
> singly or in small groups. The bodies were inhumed
> in wooden coffins
> and covered with kurgans, or interred in wooden or
> stone chambers.
> Luxurious Roman-made gifts and fancy barbarian
> emulations (such as
> silver and gold clasps with springs, created with an
> unsurpassed
> attention to detail, dated 3rd century CE from
> Wroc³aw Zakrzów), but
> not weapons, were placed in the graves. 1st and 2nd
> century burials of
> this type, occurring all the way from Jutland to
> Lesser Poland, are
> referred to as princely graves Lubieszewo type,
> after Lubieszewo,
> Gryfice County in western Pomerania, where six such
> burials were found'
> > circled by stones, under kurgans. The mentionedNote the reference to "many local products". What this
> > objects are bronze wine goblets, silver and glass
> > vases (with depictions of gladiatorial contests in
> > Rome) and "many local products" (presumably of the
> > type which would be found in non-princely graves).
> A
> > "local Germanic dynasty" they say.
>****GK: You've misread the sources. The only
> >
> > There is apparently nothing in the L.type graves
> of
> > other areas which can allow us to construe them as
> a
> > unified archaeological culture, let alone a
> > development of Przeworsk, EXCEPT IN THE AREA OF
> > PRZEWORSK ITSELF.
>
> That's not what I read in the sources. They say
> there was a remarkably
> uniform upper class (relatively to the local
> culture) but that it was
> heterogenous within itself.
>****GK: See above. If the only cultural identifiers
> > If the situation of the standard
> > area (Lubieszewo) is repeated elsewhere, then the
> > "local element" would be defining in each
> particular
> > area. This can be checked.
>
> I don't understand that paragraph. Could you
> rephrase?
>****GK: This is meaningless. You have no evidence for
> > We already know the answer
> > for Lubieszewo proper (to repeat myself).
> > Your universal Przeworsk scenario is simply not
> true.
>
> It's a universal upper crust scenario.
>****GK: Torsten, you can "save" anything you like as
>
> > But here is something for you, says the devil's
> > advocate:
> >
> > "in Siemiechów [Central Poland GK]a grave of a
> warrior
> > who must had taken part in the Ariovistus
> expedition
> > during the 70-50 BC period was found; it contains
> > Celtic weapons and an Alpine region manufactured
> > helmet used as an urn, together with local
> ceramics."
> > (Poland in Ant. website)
> >
> > This is a convincing argument for Przeworsk
> > participation in the Ariovist saga, of course, but
> the
> > "return" of the participant is to Przeworsk
> itself.
> > Can you find such graves in the other areas where
> the
> > L.type ones later emerge?
> >
>
> I am not sure I can save a putative 'Ariovistus goes
> to Denmark'
> scenario, given the time frame of the appearance of
> those graves, but
> I might save something like 'An Ariovistus successor
> goes to Denmark
> with the northern part of the upper crust a century
> later'. I recall
> vaguely we dicussed the provenance (eastern or
> western) of Rome-origin
> grave goods of princely gravces in Denmark; some
> pointed east, some west.
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Torsten
>
>
>