Re: Hachmann versus Kossack?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> > <gknysh@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > There is a very good reason why you don't find any Cherusci,
> > > > Marsi, Chatti, Bructeri, Chauci and Sicambri there after
> > > > Germanicus went looking for them.
> > >
> > > GK: What are you talking about? Where is "there" and when is
> > > "there"? Tacitus' Annales and Germania seem to tell an adequate
> > > story.
> >
> > The Cherusci, Marsi, Chatti, Bructeri, Chauci and Sicambri
> > participated in the Clades Variana.
>
> ****GK: Yes.****
>
> > Germanicus went on a punitive expedition in Germania after that.
> > Any member of those tribes he met on his way would have been in
> > trouble.
>
> ****GK: The Marsi certainly were. They seem to have
> suffered the most. It's unclear if they still existed
> in 98 CE (if so they were not very significant any
> more(?)****
>

Unlikely, considering the Tamfana massacre on unsuspecting noncombatants.

> > It's safe to assume they changed location at that time, even
> > though they won the war,
>
> ****GK: I don't see that in the sources. "Moving and manoeuvering
> around" and "changing location" is not quite the same thing. By 18
> CE most if not all would have been back in their old territories.
> When we first hear of the Chatti, for instance, (in Strabo 7.1.3-4,
> writing ca. 18 CE) they are between Elbe and Rhine, and Tacitus'
> Annals for the year 15 (1.56) point to an area in Hesse.

No, the first we hear of them is in the Clades Variana.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatti

> And that's where they still are in 98 CE for all their
> manoeuverings. It's best not to assume migration at a particular
> period unless one has archaeological or documentary evidence.****

Ah, I see what you mean. You seem not to have noticed that I
identified the Chatti etc with NWBlock, ie. the Chatti must have
migrated to where we find them from their old territories, the area
north of the Lippe, taking advantage of the disappearance of their
southern neighbors. No responsible head of family would have stayed in
those tracts, in knowledge of that Roman policy Arminius called a war
on women.

> > eventually (but it must have depleted them too, and Elbe Germani
> > reinforcements were most likely welcome).
>
> ****GK: One interesting thing archaeology might tell
> us is the EXTENT of the EG immigration. Were the later
> Chatti 30, 40, 50, 60% EG? This would have obvious
> linguistic consequences. But I guess Hachmann and
> Kossack don't go into such details.****

They are quite impresionistic. Kuhn points out that the -st- suffix,
as in Segestes is typically NWBlock, found in many toponyms there,
whereas Segimerus, Segetes' brother (not Arminius eponymous father)
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segimerus
had a typical two-element Germanic name, although with the same first
element, as was customary in families. This supposedly shows a
progessive Germanization. Interesting that the -st- names are
collaborationist, Segimerus fights with Arminius.


Torsten