Re: Mitanni and Matsya

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "David Russell Watson" wrote:
>
> I have traced the connections between planets and earthly
> functions in a great many cultures, and have consistently
> found these associations where syncretism has not blurred
> them.

Where did you publish your findings, and how were they
received?

I'm not inclined to believe anything you say on the mere
basis of your say-so. It's not that I suspect you of
lying, per se, but rather you tend to take your personal
conclusions as fact, and then represent them to others
as fact, and your conclusions themselves, as we've seen
again and again and again, tend to be far from the most
logical.

> I can say that 'sea-gods/goddesses' are consistently associated
> with the planet Venus, because that is what I have found.

No, what you can say is that is that you saw a connection
in all the cases you looked at, but you cannot claim that
such a connection is universally natural or necessary.

> Now, David, you can easily prove me wrong by producing a deity of
> the sea which is associated with a planet other than Venus. Can
> you do it?

Yes, here are some:

Kanaloa (Hawaiian), Llyr (Celtic), Owatatsumi/Ryujin (Japanese ),
the Wata-tsu-mi (Japanese ), Tangaroa (Maori ), Ahti (Finnish ),
Kalunga (Africa and in Brazil), Tau-mari-u (Philippines ), Yam
(Levant ), Mazu (Chinese ), Agwe (Voudun).

> > > Cosmic order and justice is usually the province of a 'sun-
> > > god'.
> >
> > This is likewise a personal observation of yours only, of
> > some particular cases which you've improperly generalized.
>
> Well, again, you can easily prove me wrong by showing us a god of
> justice and order that is not associated with the sun. Can you do
> it?

First you say that it is the province of a "sun god", but now
here you broaden it to anything "associated" with the sun. I
am holding you to "sun god", since you've shown that you think
you can "associate" anything with absolutely anything else you
choose:

Ma'at (Egypt), Forseti (Norse), Rod (Slavic), Tzedek (Canaanite)

> I previously asked you to explain the _u_ in Varuna.
>
> Why do you not do so now?

It would help to know what it is about it that you imagine
needs explanation.

It's part of the Indo-Aryan suffix '-una-', of course. It
appears in several Vedic words including tár-una- 'young',
dhar-úna- 'supporting', m. n. 'support', 'mith-uná- 'forming
a pair', m. 'couple', vár-una- m. 'a god', s^ak-uná- 'bird',
quoting from Macdonell's Vedic grammar.

Go to http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/ and search for the
string 'una', removing the quotes and making sure to select
'substring' from the drop-down menu on the right, and you'll
receive a long list of words with the same suffix.

> > Varuna is well known in the Vedas as the god who established
> > the world by his act of creating its boundaries. He's also
> > strongly defined, in concert with Mitra, as a god overseeing
> > and enforcing the rules and morals of human society, and thus
> > he sets and maintains boundaries in that sphere too.
>
> Syncretism has blurred many a god's original functions.

What syncretism, and who's going to leave it to _you_ to
decide what is syncretic and what is original?

Syncretism involves, by definition, _later_ additions or
changes, and so, likewise by logical definition, we look
at the _earliest_ sources to find the non-syncretized or
least syncretized.

Our earliest source describing Varuna is the Rig Veda.

> Mitra

Since you mention Greeks and Romans you actually mean Mithra-
and not Mitra.

> is, contra Wiki, a sun-god almost certainly. Would the
> Greek and Romans not have known?

It was a very late Mithra that was known to the Greeks and
Romans, whereas we are inquiring into a nearly proto-Indo-
Iranian Varuna, Mitra, and Indra when we ask about their
Mitanni forms.

> Some Indians, like many fools today, thought mere puns and
> casual resemblances indicated deeper relationships.


> Again, to prove me wrong, show us a sky-god (not a weather-god)
> that is supreme in a pantheon.
>
> Can you do it?

It's the very etymology of Zeus' name.

David