Re: Mitanni and Matsya

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
wrote:

> [David had written:]
>


> You [i.e. David] are the one who introduced the word 'confine' in
> connection with your proposed root for Varuna: *vR-. I continue to
> think the suggestion purely idiotic. No one familiar with divine
> nomenclature practices would believe 'Confiner' as a meaning for a
> sea-god!

The derivation of the name Varun.a, like that of the name of the
primordial serpent Vr.tra, from the Sanskrit verbal root vr.- 'to
cover, enclose, hide away, confine' is a very old and respectable
etymological hypothesis to which I, however, prefer the derivation
of the name Varun.a (not of Vr.tra, which is certainly from vr.-)
from PIE *u_erh1- 'to speak (solemnly, or with truth)'. This
etymology, repeatedly cited by David, was the standard one among
Indologists and Vedicists in times past. Currently there seems to be
an increasing consensus on the alternative etymology from PIE
*u_erh1-, making Varun.a the god of 'true speech'. Thus, David's
suggestion is not at all "idiotic". What is idiotic is to regard the
R.gvedic Varun.a as a sea-god instead.

Regards,
Francesco

>
> ***
>
> <snip>
>
> > Do you think I have no access to Wiki? I have read, perhaps,
> > dozens of books on this subject including all of Dumézil.
> >
> > I knew about and have been thinking about the meaning of Varuna
> > since Graves. Do you know how long that is?
>
> A turtle may crawl for a very long time, and even stay in
> a perfectly straight line the entire while, yet not get a
> fraction as far as a leopard could in the same amount of
> time.
>
> ***
>
> You, the leopard. Pfffffft!
>
> ***
>
> It matters not in the least how long you've been thinking
> about something, or how many books you claim to have read
> about it, Patrick, when we've dissected your ideas and
> arguments right here and in front of all and proved them
> to be poorly informed and logically defective.
>
> It's really only to your own shame that you add, Patrick,
> when you tell us how long you've been thinking and yet
> produced such wretched results.
>
> ***
>
> Every other adjective an insult.
>
> Most egotists like yourself do not really realize how transparent

their

> devices are to people.
>
> You have added no new information to the discussion in the

paragraphs above

> except to display your contempt for me.
>
> David, the list already got that point emails ago!
>
> ***
>
> > > To what degree is Varuna associated with the sea in the
> > > Rig Veda? His primary and original functions are quite
> > > different, and it is to the latter we must look in order
> > > to understand his name.
> >
> > APAM PITAH
>
> Your Sanskrit fails you again, as 'ap-' means 'water' not
> 'sea'. Why aren't you consulting the dictionary I pointed
> out to you at http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil ?
>
> So then it's just as I've said, he's associated to a small
> degree, your use of capital letters doing nothing to make it
> any bigger.
>
> ***
>
> Seas are not composed of water?
>
> ***
>
> > > Mitra's function in the Rig Veda, likewise, has little
> > > to do with the sun. He and Varuna are mentioned together
> > > in the Vedas again and again, even employing a special
> > > compound word of their two names, as the joint protectors
> > > of the contract, friendship, all human social bonds in
> > > general.
> >
> > While Mitra has little to do with the sun in the Rig Veda, the
> > Rig Veda is only one voice in the colloquy.
>
> Yes, along with the Avesta, it's the _oldest_ of the voices.
>
> ***
>
> No, actually not. The oldest voice is the proper analysis of his

name.

>
> ***
>
> > Mitra was identified with Helios by the Greeks and Romans who
> > probably understood more about their religion than

your 'experts'.

>
> Greeks identified a very late and thoroughly Zoroastrianized
> version of Mithra with Helios, but then who has ever denied
> that Mithra took on more and more solar attributes as time
> went by?
>
> ***
>
> Mitra's original attributes were solar.
>
> ***
>
> > What is Mitra's birthday and what is the significance of that day
> > of the year?
>
> ***
>
> You do not know the answers to these questions, do you?
>
> ***
>
> Well today you told us that "Syncretism has blurred many
> a god's original functions", and pretended discernment in
> regard to what is original and what is syncretic, and now
> you turn right around and present us with as late and as
> highly syncretized a version of Mithra as there is to be
> had - the form in which he was worshipped in Rome!
>
> What you're doing is akin to claiming that aircraft, tanks,
> and computer-guided missiles were used during the U.S.'s
> revolutionary war, or that Paul Revere led an assault on
> Germany during World War II. I assumed that you were a
> student of history, but in light of such claims it's clear
> that you don't mentally possess a basic framework of dates
> and historical periods grounding you.
>
> I'll keep this in mind in the future and try to provide as
> much chronological information as I can, but for now just
> let me alert you that, between the time and places that the
> Rig Veda and Avesta were composed and the first appearance
> in Rome of a temple to Mithra, there were many centuries,
> and many kilometers.
>
> ***
>
> More abuse. David, your petticoat is showing.
>
> ***
>
> > Well, if Ouranos were cognate, it would put a new complexion on
> > Varuna's origins.
>
> If it were. Maybe you should try to prove that first.
>
> ***
>
> I have provided the analysis. I guess you missed it - like so much

else.

>
> ***
>
> > Now, I will ask again:
> >
> > please explain the _u_ in Varuna as it relates to your proposed
> > derivation. My guess is you cannot, and that is why you keep
> > ignoring it and excising the question in your 'answers'.
>
> You're not asking "again", I already answered that question,
> some time ago. Check the archives or your mail box again if
> you truly haven't seen it yet.
>
> David
>
> ***
>
> Oh, you think a casual mention of -una as a suffix suffices as an

answer.

>
> I asked you what PIE suffix is its correspondent; and now ask what

the name

> means based on your root and suffix?
>
>
> Patrick
>
> ***
>