Re: Mitanni and Matsya

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "David Russell Watson"

<liberty@...> wrote:

>
> Varuna existed long before the Rig Veda.

Where is Varuna attested earlier than in the Rig Veda?

> > It is most certainly not an "idiocy", and referring to
> > it as such is very rude to those on this list who were
> > kind enough to bring it to your attention. It is in
> > fact a well known and widely accepted etymology despite
> > your never having heard of it yourself before today.
>
> How do you know what I have or have not known before you
> were "kind enough" to share your opinion?

Because if you knew any better you wouldn't be throwing
around silly accusations of idiocy.

> Unless the idea was originated by you, I accnot think you would
> be affected by a charge of "idiocy".

Most good people are affected by the abuse of others, and
I for one am bone-weary of your abuse of this list.

> Did you originate anything in this discussion?

Do I need to have originated anything?

> Do you think I have no access to Wiki? I have read, perhaps,
> dozens of books on this subject including all of Dumézil.
>
> I knew about and have been thinking about the meaning of Varuna
> since Graves. Do you know how long that is?

A turtle may crawl for a very long time, and even stay in
a perfectly straight line the entire while, yet not get a
fraction as far as a leopard could in the same amount of
time.

It matters not in the least how long you've been thinking
about something, or how many books you claim to have read
about it, Patrick, when we've dissected your ideas and
arguments right here and in front of all and proved them
to be poorly informed and logically defective.

It's really only to your own shame that you add, Patrick,
when you tell us how long you've been thinking and yet
produced such wretched results.

> > To what degree is Varuna associated with the sea in the
> > Rig Veda? His primary and original functions are quite
> > different, and it is to the latter we must look in order
> > to understand his name.
>
> APAM PITAH

Your Sanskrit fails you again, as 'ap-' means 'water' not
'sea'. Why aren't you consulting the dictionary I pointed
out to you at http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil ?

So then it's just as I've said, he's associated to a small
degree, your use of capital letters doing nothing to make it
any bigger.

> > Mitra's function in the Rig Veda, likewise, has little
> > to do with the sun. He and Varuna are mentioned together
> > in the Vedas again and again, even employing a special
> > compound word of their two names, as the joint protectors
> > of the contract, friendship, all human social bonds in
> > general.
>
> While Mitra has little to do with the sun in the Rig Veda, the
> Rig Veda is only one voice in the colloquy.

Yes, along with the Avesta, it's the _oldest_ of the voices.

> Mitra was identified with Helios by the Greeks and Romans who
> probably understood more about their religion than your 'experts'.

Greeks identified a very late and thoroughly Zoroastrianized
version of Mithra with Helios, but then who has ever denied
that Mithra took on more and more solar attributes as time
went by?

> What is Mitra's birthday and what is the significance of that day
> of the year?

Well today you told us that "Syncretism has blurred many
a god's original functions", and pretended discernment in
regard to what is original and what is syncretic, and now
you turn right around and present us with as late and as
highly syncretized a version of Mithra as there is to be
had - the form in which he was worshipped in Rome!

What you're doing is akin to claiming that aircraft, tanks,
and computer-guided missiles were used during the U.S.'s
revolutionary war, or that Paul Revere led an assault on
Germany during World War II. I assumed that you were a
student of history, but in light of such claims it's clear
that you don't mentally possess a basic framework of dates
and historical periods grounding you.

I'll keep this in mind in the future and try to provide as
much chronological information as I can, but for now just
let me alert you that, between the time and places that the
Rig Veda and Avesta were composed and the first appearance
in Rome of a temple to Mithra, there were many centuries,
and many kilometers.

> Well, if Ouranos were cognate, it would put a new complexion on
> Varuna's origins.

If it were. Maybe you should try to prove that first.

> Now, I will ask again:
>
> please explain the _u_ in Varuna as it relates to your proposed
> derivation. My guess is you cannot, and that is why you keep
> ignoring it and excising the question in your 'answers'.

You're not asking "again", I already answered that question,
some time ago. Check the archives or your mail box again if
you truly haven't seen it yet.

David