Re: 'Vocalic Theory'

----- Original Message -----
From: "Miguel Carrasquer Vidal" <miguelc@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] RE: 'Vocalic Theory'


> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 09:43:12 -0500, "Patrick Ryan"
> <proto-language@...> wrote:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Miguel Carrasquer Vidal" <miguelc@...>
> >> Some cases of vr.ddhi are very old indeed. That explains the
> >> full grade in most thematic nouns, adjectives and verbs. The
> >> root was lengthened, the stress fell on the thematic vowel
> >> (e.g. **bhar- => **bha:r-á-). Subsequently, the long vowel
> >> was shortened in pretonic position, and attracted the stress
> >> (**bha:r-á- > *bhér-e-).
> >
> >***
> >
> >Why was the root vowel lengthened?
> >
>
> Because that's how the derivational device known as
> "vr.ddhi" works.


***

These Delphic responses are really quite unattractive.

You know very well what I meant.

To accomplish what purpose in PIE was vr.ddhi employed?

A hint: to form adjectives from nouns . . .


***


> >***
> >> The cases in which PIE still has a long vowel are more
> >> recent (*h2owi- => *h2o:wi-óm). That is simply because
> >> vr.ddhi remained a productive derivational pattern.
> >***
> >
> >So, are you saying that the addition of -*om caused the vowel to be
> >lengthened?
>
> Not quite. Like the addition of *-h2a doesn't _cause_ the
> verbal root to reduplicate. It's morphological.

***

Your answer is only 15% pregnant.

To what purpose is vr.ddhi used in *H2o:wi-óm according to you.


***


> >Any other examples of that?
>
> Yes. *swék^ur- "father in law" => *swe:kurós "brother in
> law" (Du. zwager, G. Schwager > Pol. szwagier). There are
> more, but of course I can't think of any right now.

***

You simply could not come up with a non-compound, could you?

Do you want to actually communicate or just riddle?

Let me propose a simple one:

*ghel-, 'call'

Under what conditions do we expect and find *ghe:l-?

***

> Note that from zero-grade roots with a resonant, vr.ddhi
> works by inserting /e/ (at the first available spot, so not
> always the etymologically correct place): *dieu- : *diu-
> "sky, etc." => *deiwós "divine". Or *nu "now" => new-ós
> "new".


***

Ah, so now PIE vr.ddhi _includes infixing vowels, which are _not_ long?

So vr.ddhi has nothing to do with lengthening per se?

As for your example, *nu is the zero-grade of *new(-ós) and not the other
way around.


Patrick

***


> =======================
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> miguelc@...
>
>