Re: Finnish KASKI

Sorry,

n'ed' for *nüdi `handle, grip' is apparently Ersä Mordvin.
I have to take your word that Moksha is näd since my etymological
dictonary states Mordva unspecifically for this particular entry.

On the other hand, if you would allow to account for Ersä as a
representaive of Proto-Mordvin we could move up some 2-4 more words,
except *nüdi, from the exceptions list to the regular correspondences
list, assuming that the e is original in Ersä.

*küs'i `ask'
*s'üklä `wart, nipple'
*ükti `1'
*üji `night'

Jouppe

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "jouppe" <jouppe@...> wrote:
>
> Your question, Arnaud, is not relevantly put to challenge the
phoneme
> */ü/. If the issue of irregularities was the only point you were
> trying to make I don't think you broke big news. Sound
irregularities
> are particularly tricky in Uralic due to the many borrowings in the
> more centrally located languages, such as Moksha, Mari and Udmurt.
>
> You should be the first to know, Arnaud, how the comparative method
> works, since you are devoting your expertise and effort to look for
> regular correspondences between Moksha and Chinese. You don't start
> with the irregularities.
>
> First you are supposed to establish the regularities. Only after
that
> homework properly done, you are able to look at conditioned or
> spontaneous deviations from the rules and test your rules. I will
> help you only with the first bit although Finno-Ugrian is not the
> easiest case in point because of the many sound irregularities.
>
> So i ran through the material for */ü/. The regular correspondence
> for Moksha is e. You will find it in words like
> *külmä/*külmi `cold'
> *künc^i `nail'
> *kün'ärä `elbow'
> *mün,ä `with (after, behind)'
> *nüc^ä `prop'
> *n'üktä `pluck, rip, harvest linen'
> *nüdi `handle, grip'
> *südämi `heart'
> *süli `lap'
> *sülki `saliva'
> *s'üdi `charcoal'
> *üli `over, above'
>
> Irrgular ones for Moksha (conditioned?) you will find in words
like:
> küs'i `ask'
> *küji `viper'
> *pün,i `hazel-grouse'
> *s'üklä `wart, nipple'
> *s'üks'i `autumn'
> *ükti `1'
> *üji `night'
> *vüdimi `nucleus, marrow'
>
> And for the benefit of those who don't know the challanges of
Uralic:
> this modest list is more or less exhaustive for words with original
> */ü/ occuring both in Moksha and Finnish.
>
> The more critical question is that of the uniqueness of the series
> and the existance of minimal pairs. The series of correspondences
for
> */ü/ resembles somewhat the series for */i/. E.g. Moksha has mostly
e
> for both. The systemic differences seem to appear at least in
Permic
> and Baltic-Finnic (I have not looked at Samoyed here). Permic quite
> regularly shows a close central vowel where Finnic has /y/ albeit
> also vowels like u occure in Udmurt in some words and e in Komi in
> others. When Permic has /i/ also Finnic quite regularly has /i/.
But
> again there are exceptions, some but not all due to spontaneous
> i>y in Finnish.
>
> The more particular question, Arnaud, that you put to me about the
> deviations in Moksha is for somebody who has studied the sound
> history of Moksha in general and borrowings from Mari, Permic and
> Finnic in particular. Maybe yourself?
>
> Jouppe
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud"
> <fournet.arnaud@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: jouppe
> >
> > Could this system do away with ü and ï then??
> > Jouppe
> >
> > ==================
> > Hello again, Jouppe !
> >
> > Read again message 53881
> >
> > süks'i : Moksha çjokçja
> > künci : Moksha kenzhä
> > nüdi : Moksha näd
> > kün'ärä : Moksha kener
> > küji : Moksha kuj
> >
> > First explain me :
> > How is it possible that
> > supposedly *ü can become
> > any of jo e ä e u
> > in Moksha.
> >
> > First do that.
> >
> > Arnaud
> >
> > =================
> >
>