Re: Re[3]: [tied] Re: dhuga:ter

----- Original Message -----
From: "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: Re[3]: [tied] Re: dhuga:ter


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian M. Scott
> To: fournet.arnaud
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:24 PM
> Subject: [Courrier indésirable] Re[3]: [tied] Re: dhuga:ter
>
>
> At 3:57:58 PM on Thursday, March 20, 2008, fournet.arnaud
> wrote:
>
> ===========
> >I wouldn't be surprised if it was precisely senex ~ senem
> >what led Martinet to look into the matter of laryngeal
> >hardening in the first place.
>
> >Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> ==========
>
> > You are supposed to be
> > a reliable serious IE expert.
> > You claim you read Martinet
> > and you wrote "I wouldn't be surprised..."
>
> > I have to contradict you once again,
> > No, this is not true,
> > it's obvious you did not read him,
>
> I doubt it. Can you quote a passage in which Martinet
> explains what led him to investigate laryngeal hardening?
> If not, then Miguel's 'I wouldn't be surprised' comment says
> absolutely nothing about whether he's read Martinet or not.
> Brian
> ==============
> Martinet, 1975, Evolution des langues et reconstruction,
> PUF, Paris.
>
> P148
>
> "les formes indo-européennes en -a:k
> et leurs thématisations en -a:ko- paraissent
> désigner surtout des êtres masculins,
> on est amené à penser que -k- est apparu
> dans des contextes particuliers aux masculins.
> Ceci évoque les masculins en -a:- du grec,
> avec leur -s# de nominatif singulier,
> s'opposant aux féminins sans -s#.
> Ce serait donc devant la désinence -s
> du nominatif singulier que H2,
> phonétiquement quelque fricative dorso-vélaire,
> se serait durci en -k- alors qu'il tendait
> à s'affaiblir partout ailleurs."

***

If he does not _mention_ <senex> specifically, that of which he is thinking
is that group of words analagously shaped as <senex>.

***


> This approach is likewise described
> in Martinet, 1986, Des steppes aux Océans,
> Payot, Paris, p154 à 157
>
> Le s qu'on peut rendre responsable
> du durcissement de la laryngale est,
> outre la marque du nominatif, ...
> [...]
> les noms féminins en -a: ne prennent
> jamais le -s du nominatif
> [...]
> les masculins en a:- < eH2 sont
> tout autre chose
> [...]
> le produit a:ks est attesté dans
> une série d'adjectifs du type auda:ks
> morda:ks, etc
>
> Martinet delves into
> the result of masculine nouns
> ending with eH2
> (like agri-cola, or Greek nauta)
> (as opposed to feminine nouns -a:)
> that are alternating with
> adjectives which end with a:-k-s.
> It is obvious that
> Miguel has *not the slightest*
> beginning of an idea about what
> Martinet ever wrote.
> Otherwise He would never
> have written his obviously
> completely off-target suggestion.
>
> Mr Carrasquer Vidal
> has never opened any book
> or article by Martinet
> about this issue.
> This fact is obvious.
> His claim of the contrary
> is colliding with Martinet's approach
> in the most blatant manner.
>
> Arnaud

<snip>

***

I have never read Martinet, and his nutty idea that *H2 is a dorsal
fricative positively insures that I never will.

Why call the damn things 'laryngeals' if they are velar?



Patrick