Re: dhuga:ter

----- Original Message -----
From: "Miguel Carrasquer Vidal" <miguelc@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re: dhuga:ter


> On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:00:00 -0500, "Patrick Ryan"
> <proto-language@...> wrote:
>

<snip>

> No, it's */seneh2-/ (i.e. *[senah2-]).

***

It looks to me, and apparently also to Pokorny since he lists *sen(o)-, that
at least two forms are present: root: *sen-; stem: sena:H2-.

Do you think *sen- is unjustifiable?

I am inclined to think that *sen- is 'old' (*CVC); *sena:H2 (my preferred
*senHa(:)), is literally 'old age'. Additionally, I would add, that my own
work leads me to think *H is this case derives from *?.

***

> >Secondly, the theorized hardening apparently occurs with all
> >'laryngeals',
> >suggesting a phonological identity that would make variegated responses
> >to
> >them by adjacent vowels problematical.

***

You did not address this. I would be interested in your thoughts.

***


> >Thirdly, the fact that the proposed 'laryngeal' is only perhaps
> >predominantly 'hardened' makes one wonder about the lack of (almost, at
> >least) complete regularity we have a right to expect in any given
> >language.
> >
> >If we take the context in which it allegedly occurs
> >oftenest, -*(i)H(a)+*s.
> >in my opinion, the frequent lengthening of vowels creates another
> >problem;
> >there is nothing about -*g or -*k that should lengthen a preceding vowel.
> >In
> >this model we have to assume Spiderman capabilities for *H: 1) it
> >lengthens
> >the preceding vowel without losing any integrity, and then 'hardens' into
> >*g/*k.
>
> The presence or absence of lengthening almost certainly has
> to do with paradigmatic leveling. If we had nom. *senáh2-s,
> acc. *senáh2-m => *senáks, *sená:m, this can in principle be
> leveled to:
>
> *-á:(s), *-á:m
> *-á:ks, *-á:km. (c.q. *-á:ks, *-á:gm.)
> *-áks, *-ákm. (c.q. *-áks, *-ágm.)
>
> All variants are attested.

***

I looked through 10 pages of Google to find "c. q." with no luck.

What does it mean, please?

Now, as for your reconstructions immediately above, my Latin references are
paltry.

I can solve my problem by knowing the actual Latin forms of the accusative
and and nominative plural of senex.

Let us take it from there.

I will have more comments when I get your return email.

Without going into all the gruesome details, it is difficult for me to go to
the library. Sorry to impose.


Patrick

***


> >[...]
> >My last objection, or really observation, is that I am not aware of this
> >'hardening outside of PIE-derived languages though my bet is that Richard
> >does.
>
> There is an obvious parallel in German Fuchs /fUks/ "fox"
> and similar words. German is PIE-derived, of course, but the
> hardening of the velar here is clearly a totally independent
> phenomenon.
>
> =======================
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> miguelc@...
>
>