Thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately, it would
take me days, dictionary in hand, to properly
understand and appreciate the longish Hachmann quote
you appended. Still, a few comments are possible.
--- tgpedersen <
tgpedersen@...> wrote:
Is the other
> "foreign
> > phenomena" drive (this is what I may have
> > misunderstood), the one towards the area to the
> north,
> > also associated with a "Przeworsk" push?
> >
> That is what Hachmann's text say, as far as I can
> see. I repeat the
> relevant part:
> "
> Innerhalb dieses Gebietes treten - vielleicht gegen
> Mitte des letzten
> vorchristlichen Jahrhunderts oder etwas früher -
> vereinzelt
> Fremderscheinungen auf, nämlich einige wenige Gräber
> in der Wetterau, /etc. cut for economy/
>
> So 'nächstverwandtes', ie "something which is the
> most closely
> related" (translated clumsily), to the
> 'Fremd-erscheinungen', ie.
> "foreign (out-of-place) phenomena/objects" that is
> suddenly found in
> the Wetterau, is found in Central Germany, but more
> numerously, and
> also there appearing foreign in the environment;
> only all the way east
> in Przeworsk do we find something which matches
> perfectly (and
> presumably here not foreign in the environment).
>
> Now literally all we can interpret from that is that
> the Wetterau
> group (presumably Ariovist, the short lifetime of
> the incursion would
> explain the relative scarcity of finds here relative
> to Central
> Germany) disappeared, and a more dense group (or
> more long-lived)
> stayed in Central Germany (that must include
> Thuringia). I can't find
> anywhere that he directly says that this group moved
> north and
> *became* Elbgermanen.
****GK: I think this is basically right. The important
point is that the "Przeworsk intrusions" occurred into
the archaeological area Hachmann earlier described (in
the first of your erstwhile translations) as a heavily
Celtic-influenced territory east of the Rhine, south
of the Lippe, and West of the upper Leine valley (the
latter obviously in Thuringia). In order to get there,
these "Ariovist contingents" <72-58 BCE> clearly had
to cross the Elbe and move through territory which did
not belong to this "Lippe-Leine" culture, and which
rather seemed to be Jastorf or (pre)-Elb-Germanic. The
influence this push-through had is undeniable,but it
reminds one of the Roman influence, or of the Gothic
influence on the Alans as they pushed through to the
Crimea. What it seems to have accomplished is to help
reorganize and "militarize" the Jastorf and other
middle groups (middle between the original Przeworsk
area and the newly 'colonized' territories in
Thuringia and further west), and in that way
(indirectly) were a factor in the emergence of the
Elb-Germanic culture. This, of course, is quite
different from the way in which Przeworsk itself was
created. That is to say,there is no evidence at all of
any direct Przeworsk contribution (no settlements or
artifacts) to the emergence of Elb-Germanic in areas
north and east of the "Lippe-Leine" territory. And
while the original Przeworsk culture continued to
thrive for centuries in the east (it did not disappear
there until the 5th century CE), Hachmann seems to say
that within a couple of generations at the most the
Przeworsk elements in Hesse(I'm not sure about
Thuringia)were absorbed by an expanding Elb-Germanic
culture which was not the outcome of Przeworsk
cultural activism. If that is so, and let me know if
I've missed something in Hachmann which militates
against it, there is no need to continue the
discussion, since Przeworsk can hardly be taken as the
context for the emergence of the "proper" Germanic
language and literature. These processes (the
Przeworsk invasions, the Elb-Germanic expansion)
rather seem to indicate a reshuffling of groups
already "Germanic" (in the widest sense). I had
originally thought that you would suffer your Cannae
at the Swedish border(:=))),but I see now that the
battle was already lost at the Elbe.****
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