From: fournet.arnaud
Message: 54804
Date: 2008-03-07
----- Original Message -----
From: tgpedersen
> ===========
> Last Summer,
> you pointed at the Dutch word <pier> "worm"
> which you consider NBW
> and I see no reason why it can't be pseudo-Celtic *kwer.
Me and Occam can't see any reason why one would introduce yet another
language beside NWBlock in that area.
=================
You misread my point.
I consider that NWB is "para"-Celtic
as you say.
I'm not adding a language
I'm suppressing NWB as useless.
I also consider the "geminate" language is useless
this is a PIE feature, exhibited regularly by Celtic.
NWB is typically Celtic :
kw > p as in kwer > per
gw > b : River wegw > weib
as in Gaulish vabero
Gemination from ?-C > -CC-
Simplifiez, simplifiez, simplifiez...
Il en restera le Occam's Razor.
Arnaud
==============
> Then If the connection with *kwer "worm" is right,
> Grimm L.verSch.
Lautverschiebung?
===========
PIE *kwer
=> NWB para-Celtic *per (or pir)
=> Borrowed as Dutch pier. [pir]
I repeat
The LvS was finished when this word was borrowed.
Arnaud.
===========
No. Those loans are migration time loans. It is well known
linguistically that Germanic constacts with Celtic are late.
==============
Contacts with archaic Uralic
must be early.
and this is highly significant
for Germanic Original location.
And by the way,
STarostin's Yenissei word 29
fir-tree : *dinje
= Germanic *dannwo
One *more* Siberian word
in PRoto-Germanic....
Arnaud
============
> And another point is about Gothic
> which has :
> Grimm
> Verner
> Consonantic leveling of Grimm
>
> I can't see how so many changes
> can happen in four centuries.
It can happen in a few decades, given the right circumstances.
==========
Germanic underwent more major changes in 4 centuries
than any other IE language in 6 milleniums ?
I don't believe in the Herrenvolk thing ?
A.
====================
But why would they be at a loss? Because they were new speakers. With
the speech habits of that area.
Torsten
> ========
No
they were at a loss because
the impact of GRimm + Verner led to a complete
morphological and phonological *mess*
With most words having no stable roots
with over-complex stress-position and consonantic alternations.
This was resolved in two steps :
- stress reintialized (on first syllable) wherever it was before,
- stable root as far as possible,
with sometimes two roots out of two allomorphs.
Gothic went as far as possible in this direction.
Occam razor : no need to look for new speakers.
Internal messy situation caused a reshuffle.
Arnaud
=====================