From: Patrick Ryan
Message: 54117
Date: 2008-02-25
----- Original Message -----
From: "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 3:17 AM
Subject: Re: French izard (was :Re: e: [tied] Re: Finnish KASKA)
>
> Dialectal French
> >>isard = mountain goat, chamois
> >
> >This is a Pyrenean word (Cat. isard, Gasc. izar(t), Arag.
> >sarrio),
>
> Also Béarn. sàrri. Other variants are Cat. ixarso (Benasc),
> Arag. sisar, txizardo, xixardo, ixarzo.
>
> =============
> None of this word contradicts
> a pre-form &iz- "goat".
> Sometimes with reduplication.
>
> Does Basque exhibit cases
> of first-syllabe reduplication ?
>
> Only PIE does ?
>
> Arnaud
> =============
> >most likely connected with Basque izarr "star"
> >(also "white spot on the forehead", "centro por donde parte
> >el pelo").
> >Miguel
> >===========
> >I cannot see the point of a word meaning "star"
> >when we have words that mean "goat".
> >Un détour inutile.
>
> And of course a word used only in languages around the
> Pyrenees (Catalan, Gascon, Aragonese, Languédocien) and
> meaning "mountain goat", is extremely likely to be connected
> to a Middle Eastern word with with it shares almost nothing
> phonetically (the Proto-Semitic is *¿in3-), rather than with
> a Pyrinean word which is an exact phonological match.
> Miguel
> =============
> Hebrew &ez "goat"
> Arabic ma&iz "goat"
> Is an "exact phonological match" (your wording).
> This **XXinX** comes from nowhere.
>
> Next point.
> A Pyreaean word is not bound to be
> proto-basque or the like.
> Naive and superficial.
>
> FRench "gave" mountain strem
> is obviously from *gheu "gush, flow"
> It's not basque and it's 100%
> Pyreneese (from PIE)
>
> Arnaud
> ============
>
> What is clear is that isard comes from a Pyrinean substrate
> word *izarr or perhaps *itzarr. The phonology is impeccable:
> it is precisely in words of this origin that we find both
> "i-mobile" (cf. isard ~ sàrri with (
> Lat) ibex ~ (Cast) becerro "ibex/calf",
> ===========
> Same as *H2_w- "sheep"
> with a more archaic shape
> *ib-eks (instead of *ow-)
> PIE again
> A.
> ==============
> (Lat) Ilerda ~ (Cat) Lleida "Lérida",
> (Bsq/Iber) ibaika ~ (Cast) vega "valley") and the
> alternation /rr/ ~ /rd/ (cf. isard ~ sàrri with (Cast)
> izquierda ~ (Cat) esquerra, (Bsq) ezkerr "left", (Cast)
> becerro ~ (Arag) bucardo "calf/ibex", (Cast) cerdo ~ (Bsq)
> zerri "pig".
> What we don't have is a Basque word *izarr or
> *itzarr meaning "chamois".
> ========
> because Basque is today spoken in areas where there are
> unlikely to be chamois present (the mountains are too low).
> Miguel
> =======================
> Laughable...
> Maybe Basque also lacks a word
> for snow and ice !?
> Arnaud
> ===========
>
>
>
>