Re: Przeworsk as the genesis of Germanic

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
>
> > >
> > > GK: ... if you think
> > > Przeworsk is where Germanic was born, how do you
> > > explain its further extension? For instance: how
> > > did the Goths become Germanic? They developed quite
> > > independently of Przeworsk.
> >
> > I've been wondering about the Goths and Wielbark culture. But if
> > Wikipedia is to be trusted, it replaced the Oksywie culture in the
> > first century CE (I've seen 30 CE somewhere).
>
> ****GK: There is some evidence of Scandinavian arrival
> in the area of an expanding Wielbark c.in the second
> half of the 1rst c. AD, though the initial phase of
> Wielbark cannot be due to this, since the material
> culture and esp. the burial practices differ.

When is 'the initial phase´?

> Scandinavian stone stelae are not involved in the
> expansion of Wielbark into Ukraine (classical Gothic
> period). Initial Wielbark develops from Oksywie,
> which, like Przeworsk,was partly founded on Jastorfian
> infusion.****
>

You mean that elements of Oksywie are found in Wielbark? Small
surprise; unless there is total expulsion or extermination of the
former residents, elements survive.

> > That means they left
> > Scandinavia *after* the Germanic-speaking invasion,
> > thus with Germanic speakers among them.
>
> ****GK: No doubt about that. The question is: was
> Wielbark already Germanic-speaking when the Goths
> arrived? The standard view is that it was.****

OK.

>
> > As for the name, note the g-/y- confusion in a parallel thread;
> > I think Goth and Jute are cognate substrate words; Jutland
> > was earlier Reidgotaland, and that it was some general term for
> > original inhabitants.
>
> ****GK: Without getting into this (there were other
> "Reidgotalands")

Where?

> one obvious question would be: if
> Germanic starts with Przeworsk, how and when does it
> get to Scandinavia, and what is the archaeological
> evidence for this?

Ariovist's campaign in the Wetterau, later arrivals from the east into
Thuringia (maybe I should ask permission to use that word), expansion
down the Elbe (Jastorf is replaced by Elbe-Germanic), expansion into
Denmark (Celtic or Pre-Roman Iron Age is replaced by Roman Iron Age),
expansion to the Mälar area in Sweden (where I'm not familiar with the
archaeology) and to the coasts of Finland ond Estonia.

> The "Wielbark area" Goths who mixed
> with the original Wielbarkers brought with them an
> archaeological culture which had existed in
> Scandinavia since ca. 500 BCE.,and which was neither
> Przeworsk nor originating in Przeworsk.****
> >

And that is the one called here Celtic or Pre-Roman Iron Age, which
was replaced by Roman Iron Age just before that (except Sjælland and
Bornholm). So these would be refugees. I now have explain why they
used the language of the conqueror.


Torsten