Re: Finnish KASKI

The vowel triangel is not sharp at its lower end, it is blunt.
And there are different kinds of a:s, more fronted and more backed.
Thats phonetics.

Then there are 'vowel systems', with a universal tendency towards
symmetry. Many vowel systems places only one really open vowel in
that blunt edge, whatever its exact realization acoustically. Thats
Phonemics.

Finnish (like Uralic) has two completely open vowels, uccupying the
lower corners, but the back one is realized closer to being 'central'
than the fronted one.

[a] in vaari 'grandfather' is very much like [a] as in father
ä in väärin 'wrong' is much more open than a in amer engl. rather

Jouppe

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
wrote:

>
> Jouppe, you are confusing me.
>
> Sorry to be dogmatic, but the tongue is in the central position of

the mouth

> when [a] in father is pronounced or it is not.
>
> You are telling me that the Finnish tongue is never in central

position

> while vocalizing a vowel?
>
> Patrick
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jouppe" <jouppe@...>
> To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 4:27 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Finnish KASKI
>
>
> Phonematically we still do not have a central vowel in Finnish. But
> the back /a/ could acoustically be central if it belonged to another
> system. /ä/ is extremely open and fronted.
>
> Sammallahti 1988 uses /å/ for the /a/ to make perfectly clear its a
> back vowel. I follow his line in my lexicon.
>
> Jouppe
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Jouppe,
> >
> > Thanks again.
> >
> > I am rewriting your table, hopefully for clarification:
> >
> > FRONT====================BACK
> > Unrounded Rounded--------Unrounded Rounded
> > Close i---ü--------------ï---------u
> > Mid e----------------------------o
> > Open ä------------------a
> >
> > So, no central vowel?
> >
> > Sounds a bit different!
> >
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "jouppe" <jouppe@>
> > To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:04 AM
> > Subject: [tied] Re: Finnish KASKI
> >
> >
> > */ü/ was part of the original inventory, **/ö/ was not.
> >
> > Front Back
> > Unrounded Rounded Unrounded Rounded
> > Close i ü ï u
> > Mid e o
> > Open ä a
> >
> > Wikipedia states:
> > Rounded vowels were restricted to initial syllables. Vocalic
> phonemes
> > in non-initial syllables were restricted to two or three. One view
> is
> > that there were only two archiphonemic non-initial vowels /a/
> > and /i/, realized as four allophones as per vowel harmony. Another
> > view is that there were /a/, /i/ and /ə/. There were no
> > diphthongs or
> > long vowels.
> > Unquote
> >
> > Jouppe
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Jouppe,
> > >
> > > yes, thank. Very nice indeed.
> > >
> > > But was *ü part of PU or did it first come about in Proto-

Finnic?

> > >
> > > Below, you seem to be saying it was _not_ a part of PU.
> > >
> > > Patrick
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "jouppe" <jouppe@>
> > > To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:21 AM
> > > Subject: [tied] Re: Finnish KASKA
> > >
> > >
> > > Patrick,
> > >
> > > As I answered already in another string that /ü/ was part of the
> > > inventory from the start. In a separate posting I have outlined
> some
> > > descriptions on how /ö/ came about. The process is fundamentally
> > > different from i-umlaut, since vowel harmony per definition
> extends
> > > much further and occupies the same phonological play ground as
> > german
> > > style i-umlaut. See other posting under same string.
> >
>