From: mkelkar2003
Message: 53200
Date: 2008-02-15
>that
>
>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@>
> wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > As far as I know, the Finnish word for 'slave' (presumably
> > > captured in raids into southern territories), orja-, is
> > > considered one of the many loan words from Proto-Indo-
> > > Iranian... into Uralic which would indicate that:
> > >
> > > 1. the early habitat of Proto-Indo-Iranians was in an area close
> > > to the Central Asian steppe-taiga interface, e.g., near the
> > > Urals;
> > >
> > > 2. these Proto-Indo-Iranians called themselves *arya-.
> >
> > Apparently Wikipedia does not buy into this fantastical story
> > which is a corolloary of the now defunct Aryan Invasion Theory...
> >
> > Here Koenraad Elst squares off the IE-Uralic contact into an Indian
> > Homeland scenerio thus:...
> >
> > "It was the Iranians who came in contact with Uralic on a large
> > scale..."
> >
> > That fact that close kinship vocabularly can be borrowed puts a
> > dent into the idea of genetically separated families especially
> > if they occupay a vast contigous area like Eurasia. Morover were
> > no loand from Uralic into IE which starnge if these langauges were
> > in mutual conntact. More likely as Elst says orya is a late loan
> > from the Iranians who moved into Central Asia.
> >
> > M. Kelkar
>
> =============
>
> Koenraad Elst and the others âOut-of-Indiaâ theorists who claim
> the Indo-Iranian loan words in Uralic come from some Iranian sourceSee "A (small) amount of possible common ground" section
> (s), and not from Proto-Indo-Iranian, have not studied the subject
> in depth. Just to make an example, another strong case (in addition
> to Proto-Indo-Iranian *arya- > Uralic âslaveâ) for the existence of
> old linguistic contacts between groups of Uralic and Proto-Indo-
> Iranian speakers in the steppe-taiga interface zone east and west of
> the Urals is provided by the Proto-Indo-Iranian word *asura- âlord,
> god, asura (= antigod)â, which is reflected in old loans in Uralic
> both in the meanings 'lord' and 'rich':
>
> - Mordvinian (Erzya) azoro- âlordâ
> - Mansi (Vogul) at@Ér-, o:t@... 'chieftain, sovereign, prince'
> - Udmurt (Votyak) uzir-, uz@... 'rich'
> - Komi (Zyrian) ozir- 'rich'
>
> Note that, if these words had been loaned from some Iranian language
> (s), the borrowed form should have been something like ahura- (the
> corresponding term in Avestan, where the /s/ > /h/ change had
> already occurred), not asura-. Yet the typical Iranian aspiration is
> absent in *all* the Uralic words listed above.
>
> Actually it is the whole belt from the Ukraine to Siberia that
> contains hints or direct attestations of the old Proto-Indo-Iranian
> *asura-. Compare, respectively:
>
> - Ess, the highest god of the Ket Yenisseians of Middle Siberia;
> - the Buryat Mongolian äsi gods of the forests/mountains;
> - the yz gods of the Gilyak (Paleosiberians of the the lower Amur
> valley and Sakhalin).
>
> There is much more linguistic material which contradicts the OITersâ
> odd arguments about the nature of the IIr. loans into Uralic and
> some languages of Siberia. I have just uploaded in the files section
> a Word document named âPIIr. loan words in Finno-Ugrian and
> Yenisseian.docâ. You can access the direct link from the following
> announcement message:
>
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/53180
>
> To Kelkar:
>
> Please read the document in question (an excerpt from a paper by
> Michael Witzel) AS A LINGUIST WOULD DO and then come back with your
> counter-arguments (if any).
>
> Regards,
> Francesco
>