Re: Meaning of Aryan: now, "white people"?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 5:34 PM
Subject: [tied] Meaning of Aryan: now, "white people"?





Dear Patrick,

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan"
<proto-language@...> wrote:

> I do not know if all on the list would agree but I see two major
> possibilites for the deeper meaning of arya-:
>
> 1) white (person);
>
> 2) official (more as an accountant than a labor supervisor).

Re: your proposed meaning no. 2, you further write:

> The meaning I proposed is from *ar-, 'heap up for counting'.

And:

> While a modern accountant may not do the 'heaping up', he
> certainly does the accounting. We are looking at multi-functional
> scribes.

Premising that the semantics of the meaning '(official) accountant'
(= an important specialized worker who heaps up for counting) for
PIIr. *arya- (or do you even conceive of a PIE *aryo-?) looks
totally unconvincing to me when applied to what one can reasonably
argue about the self-representation of the prehistoric Indo-
Iranians, I wonder which form of the PIE root *ar- are you talking
about. The only form denoting 'counting' that comes to my mind is *
(a)re:y- (Pokorny's *(a)ri:>-, *re:i- and *re:-, *r@-), which,
significantly enough, has no IIr. reflexes.


***

The stem for 'count' seems to be *Hari- in Greek arithmos, 'number'; this is
'count' by stacking into higher units.

I think that entry in Pokorny is particularly difficult: at least two
earlier roots have been conflated: the second is seen in *re:-, 'scratch',
which has more to do with notation that organization into units.

***

Please note that most of IE comparativists today think that the only
IE-speaking folk for whom an auto-ethnonym *arya- can be
reconstructed with some safety are the Indo-Iranians; according to
them, no PIE auto-ethnonym *aryo- can be reconstructed. This is also
addressed to Arnaud, who wrote:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/52939
> Arya word was created before indo-iranian existed. It's inherited
> from PIE.

***

I do not have a big problem with that proposal.
Although I would not mind being characterized as a 'scribe', not every one
would feel the same way.

If it is true, I would simply have to back the source historically forward.
But I have seen these arguments before, and though they may be true, I have
not been completely convinced.

With *ar- as a color adjective, I feel confident that it is PIE.

***

If you want, Patrick, you can ask Michael Witzel, who moderates
another linguistic discussion forum you're a regular contributor of -
- the MTLR List. He will tell you that, while *aryo- could have well
been a PIE adjective, there is no evidence that it was used as an
ethnic self-designation outside the Indo-Iranian branch.

***

Thank you.

***


Now re: your proposed meaning no. 2:

> I do not think *a(:)r-ya- has anything to do with PIE *er- but
> rather is a color adjectives meaning 'white', or probably better
> 'pale'. In some neighborhoods, whites would been welcomed; in
> others, their whiteness would have provoked a strong negative
> reaction.

Isn't this 'racial' interpretation of the PIIr. auto-ethnonym *arya-
modeled on P. Thieme's 'social' interpretation of the term as one
meaning, at one time, 'stranger' and 'guest'? Thieme actually
proposed to explain away Vedic ari- > arya- as 'stranger' (from PIE
*al- ~ *h2el- 'beyond, other'?) -- but yet not as 'enemy' -- in the
sense of 'potential guest' as well as 'hospitable one' as opposed to
those who were not *arya-. Note that, later on, E. Benveniste
integrated this explanation with concluding that ari- indicated the
other moiety in an exogamic society, the two moieties being
sometimes in a relationship of friendship, sometimes of rivalry,
although they formed together a social unit, an 'ethnos'.

Be Thieme's your reference model or not, and forgetting for a moment
the *racist* implications of your proposal, I don't understand which
is the PIE root that, in your opinion, would have produced an *arya-
adjective meaning 'white, pale'. Couldn't you kindly elaborate
further on this?

Thanks and best regards,
Francesco

***

I also have no great objection to deriving *ari- from *ali-.

I think what you may be overlooking, however, is that *ali-, 'other', and
*ari-, 'white', would have had about the same emotional reaction from small,
xenophobic groups.

A Somali, could, with justification, refer to an Egyptian as 'pale'.

Whatever thoughts we have about racism, I think most would agree that it was
a factor of social interaction in ancient times.


Patrick