Re: The meaning of life: PIE. *gWiH3w-

----- Original Message -----
From: "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: [tied] Re: The meaning of life: PIE. *gWiH3w-


> ============
> Pokorny : p. 1183
> It is a PIE Root *wrugh
> Variant form wrigh- (Thrakian)
>
> Arnaud
> ===============

> with *urughyo- you a preformative *u-, the root, *reu- + an extension,
> *gh-,
> and a grammatical suffix, *yo-.
> PR
> ===========
> Chinese has mai4 : cereal in general
> from mrïk
> ï can just be a delabialized u
> hence *mruk is structurally the same thing as *wrugh
> I would not cut the word in little bits
> if I were you.
> Looks like a cognate *m?rugh
> Arnaud
> ===================

***

Your Chinese speculations are totally unrelated to this discussion.

***


> Extended roots with prefixes and suffixes have different vowel rules.
> Patrick
> ===========
> Now you have prefixes !? and preformatives ? for PIE
>
> I remember you recently asserted
> PIE_has_NO_prefixes
> or something like that.
>
> Arnaud
> ====================

***

You chose to forget what you have read; and then you regurgitate back what
you hope to have read.

I will go through this once more in greater detail than I did for Torsten.





PPPIE had the forms: *Ci. *Ca, *Cu, *CiC, *CaC, and *CuC as roots.

during this stage, two factors could lengthen the vowel of both root forms
*CV and *CVC:

1) the presence of an aspirated consonant before the vowel:

a) *thi -> *te:(C); *nha(C) -> *la:(C); *shu -> *so:(C); *rhi(C) ->
*re:(C);

1)) notice the front and back vowels were lowered;

2) the residue of laryngals and pharyngals, *H, preceding or following the
vowel:

a) *CiH -> *Ce:(H); *Ha(C) -> *(H)a:(C); *CuH -> *Co:(H);

***

PPIE (Pontic stage) transformed the first series into *CYa(C), *Ca(C),
*CWa(C).

where *Y and *W are glides;

PPIE syllables containing long vowels were retained unchanged.

***

PIE simplified the first series to *CA and *CAC

where *A is the Ablautvokal: *e/*o/*Ø.

The long vowels were retained.

In PIE, we have a natural vowel inventory of *A, *e:(H), *a:(H), *o:(H)


***

IN PIE

A root has the form *CA (e.g. <me>, 'I/we') or *Ce:, *Ca:, *Co: (really
*CVC), and finally *CAC.

The monosyllabic roots in PIE *A are well-known; any other root must have
the form *CV: (e.g. *pe:-) or *CAC; for this purpose, *w and *y are
consonants: e.g. Pokorny 2.*réw-, which means 'roil up'.

To roots, root extensions may be added: *réu-gh-, seen in OS rügi, 'rough
pelt'; as can be seen from the OS derivative, *réu-gh- meanves something
like 'tangled hair/fur', a not unsuitable name for a cereal grain.

Because PS and PIE are related through Nostratic, we can look to HS (Orel &
Stolbova) for confirmation. Root #2129 is *rog-, 'cereal'. In a number of
cases, we find in HS (My Afrasian) that vowel contractions foreshadowing
processes we will later see in all Semitic languages have sporadically
begin: th *o of *rog- probably should be written *o: because it is the
result of a contraction of *a/iwa. I have detailed many examples of PIE *gh
corresponding to HS *g at my website.

Whether you will ever look to see them or not, perhaps others will.

Thus, I consider HS *ro(:)g- to be equivalent to PIE *réugh-, 'tangled
hair/fur', a description of 'rye'.

To *réugh- the formant -*yó was added which took the stress-accent from the
first syllable and put it in zero-grade, meaning whatever the result of the
Ablautvokal, in this case *é, that result disappears: *rughyé-.

We can learn that, in this case at least, *u was not a PIE vowel but merely
an avocalic form of *w. Why, because *CAV is _not a permissible root form
(*reu-/*rei) whereas *rew- and *rey- are (*CAC).

At a time subsequent to these changes, a tendency to retract the
stress-accent to the root syllable came into operation: *rúghyo-. the final
*é reverting to *o upon removal of the stress-accent.

This discussion started out with your scoffing at the correspondence of
vowels in PIE because _you_ could not see how PIE *ú in *(w)rúghyo- could
correspond to the í in Thracian bríza. Pokorny gives you all the information
it should have taken to figure this out for yourself: he reconstructs
(*wrughya:) as the parent form. Whether by Umlaut or metathesis, an original
Thracian <ú> has become <í> (through *ü[?]); these kinds of exceptions to
the rules do not overturn any rules.

It was grossly negligent of Pokorny to reconstruct this root as *wrughyo-
when all listed derivations go back to *rughyo- except the Thracian
cognate - if indeed it be a cognate.

There are so many possible explanations for attaching an initial β that I
will not attempt to speculate; as the HS form is with *w(a)-, I think that
we can be almost certain that the initial β is a strictly Thracian
phenomenon.


Patrick