Re: Skt ka:n.a (Was: Who are indus people?)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wordingham" <richard@...> wrote:

>
> --- "afyangh" <fournet.arnaud@> wrote:
> >[RW] Stlatos wrote:
> >>[RW] Richard Wordingham wrote:

> On cerebral nasals without obvious conditioning factors:
> >>> Admittedly that opens up the notion that ka:n.a comes from
> >>> something like PIE **kalna or **kWolna. The nearest I can see for
> >>> this is _kiNa_ 'corn, callosity' from PIE *kal 'hard'

> >> Probably from PIE *kar+ 'bent, rough, hard'; *kr,n.ós > Latin
> >> cornus, *kr,n.áH > Middle Indic kin.a-.

> 1. Isn't that rather Latin *cornus? Are you rejecting the idea that
> Latin _cornu:_ 'horn' comes from *k^erh2, or merely suggesting that
> two words have become part of a polysemous whole?

It is possible that if the PIE *kr,n.ós meant 'hard' and had a
secondary meaning of 'hard excrescence' part of its meaning could have
mixed with cornu: in L. However, I don't care about trying to figure
that out; I wasn't talking about that. For this word I was refering
to (from Pokorny):


Number: 922

Root: ker-4

English meaning: cherry

German meaning: in Worten für `Kornelkirsche, Kirsche'

Material: Gr. krános m. f. = lat. cornus (*kr̥nos) `Kornelkirschbaum',
kránon = lat. cornum `Kornelkirsche'


I mainly connect it to *kar+ 'bent, rough, hard' by the hard pit of
the cherry. Presumably in L -os > -us as in other tree words, or some
sim. analogy.

> 2. Are you saying that Sanskrit words such as _kin.a_ and _hud.a_,
> _hud.u_ 'ram' (< *g^Hl.da, f. *g^Hel 'to cut', with shift from
> 'castrated male' to 'uncastrated male') are actually borrowings from
> Middle Indic?

As far as I know, neither word is in the Vedas. The timing seems to
work. Since Middle Indic languages had a variety of outcomes for r,
it seems that *gYHl,tos > hud.a- and *kr,n.ós > kin.a- (and kan.a-
'grain'?) are possible.

> >> I have no reason to think ka:n.a- came from PIE.

> I hadn't believed ln > n.

I still don't, but see below.

> (l.n > n. looked credible, though).
> However, I just stumbled over this entry in Pokorny under root #879
> *kel 'to stick, to sting':
>
> "kol-no-s in ai. ka:n.á-h. `durchstochen, durchlöchert, einäugig'
> (*kolno-; zum a: vgl. Wackernagel Ai. Gr. I 168) = air. (acymr.?) coll
> `luscum, einäugig', mir. (mit sekundärer Media) goll `blind';
> ablautend gr. 'kellás monóphthalmos' Hes."

If connected, I'd prefer something more like your PIE **kWolna
(instead of **kalna) but I'd say *kWeLn.o+. As I've said, in most IE
e>o irregularly by some P / KW and in PIE velar L existed alongside l
(distinguishable by several changes including opt. e>a by L). This
L+nasal > _+n. in Skt was also seen in:


p(a)L-x-mos p(a)L-x-m+ 'cup of the hoof'

p(a)L-x-ma:x p(a)L-x-mik+ 'palm of the hand'


paL-x-m+
paL-@-m+
paL-m@+
paL-mi+
paL-m.i+
paL-n.i+
pa_-n.i+
paa-n.i+

pa:n.í-H 'hoof, palm'


The PIE -ln()-, on the other hand, often gave -n.d.- in Skt.