Re: swallow vs. nightingale

From: tgpedersen
Message: 50976
Date: 2007-12-22

> > > From root '-a-m?- (glottal stop_glottalized m)
> >
> > Weird nasal. I prefer /n,W/, nasal labiovelar.
>
> > =====
> > Arnaud :
> > What makes you think *nw is less weird than *m?- ??
> > I have never imagined something like *nw as a phoneme !?
>
> You overlooked the comma. I write /n,/ for the velar nasal called
> eng. /n,W/ is the labiovelar nasal. It corresponds to /kW/ and
> /gW/ as /n,/ to /k/ and /g/, /n/ to /t/ and /d/, and /m/ to /p/
> and /b/ (or perhaps /w/, in PIE).


> Ok got it.
>
> I agree that this /n,w/ = NGw existed in the ancestor of PIE.
> But It was already transformed as H2w = H3 in most cases when PIE
> became PIE.

Those forms that came as loans would bypass that process.

> Cf. the word "water, rain" *NG-u-t?-
> Chinese *NG-u-t?-a "rain" (BeiJing yu3)
> PIE H2w_t?-
> But Semitic has *m_t?- "rain"
> suggesting that this #m- could be from *NGw
> (with loss of velar feature > m and NG-u- reinterpreted as NGw-)

Pokorny:
mad-, naß, triefen; auch von Fett triefen, vollsaftig, fett, gemästet;
mad-do-, Mästung'.

Møller:
"2 *m- 'Wasser'
(< voridg.-semit.-hamit. A-m-, vgl. berberisch Plur. aman 'Wasser'),

+ Laryngal idg. reduz. ma:-,
nordwesteurop. mit r-Suffix in
lat. mare
gall. more
air. muir
an. marr
ags. mere
ahd. meri 'Meer',
got. mari-saivs 'See',
marei 'Meer',
abulg. morje 'mare',
lit. mãres Plur. 'Haff' :

+ w- s. m-w-;

= semit. m- in
hebr. màyim
aram. màyin Pl. Wasser'
syr. mayå,
assyr. *mu:, Plur. me: 'Wasser',
arab. + y-, w- oder A- dehnstufig ma:`un 'Wasser'
(vgl. Nöldeke Neue Beitr. 166 ff.);

+ w- s. m-w-;

= ägypt. *m-

+ y- ägypt. m-y, Plur. m-y-w 'Wasser'.

m-w- 'Wasser' (< urspr. A-m- 'Wasser' + w-, s. 2 m-),
+ d- (< voridg. t- oder D.-) idg. m-wd-
in gr. múdos 'Nässe, Feuchtigkeit',
mudáo: 'bin feucht, durchnässt',
mudaléos 'feucht, benetzt' (...),
sanskr. mudirá- m. 'Wolke';

+ Laryngal idg. reduz. mu- in
sanskr. mú:tra- n. 'Harn';

== semit. *m-w-,
+ h- arab. ma:ha 'aquam multam habuit (puteus)',
`amwa:hun (gebraucht als Plur. von ma:`un 'Wasser');
+ þ- arab. ma:þa 'he moistened (a thing) in water';
+ g- arab. mawgun, Plur. `amwa:gun 'unda',
Perf. ma:ga 'undas jactavit (mare)'.

Delitzsch 65f.

"

and "
n-d- 'nass (sein)' (< voridg. n-D.-),
nd. nat hd. naz 'nass', got. natjan ahd. netzen 'netzen',
:
idg. n-t- (< voridg. n-d-), gr. notéo: 'bin nass', dieses
= semit. *n-d-, + y- arab. nadiya 'maduit', s. n-t-.

n-t- 'nass sein' (< voridg. n-d-),
gr. notéo: 'bin nass, triefe',
notía:, notís 'Nässe, Feuchtigkeit',
notízo: 'benetze',
nótios 'nass, regnicht',
noterós 'feucht, nässend',
nótos '(regenbringender) Südwind'
[: idg. n-d- (< voridg. n-D.-), s. d., in germ. n-t- 'nass'],

= semit. *n-d-,
+ y- arab. nadiya 'was (became) moist',
nadan (-an < a:n < ayun) 'rain, dew, moisture';
mit A-Infix n-A-d-,
arab. na`ada 'aquam de se emisit (terra)'."

which is why the /n,W/ in a reconstructed *(a)n,W- "water" is nice: it
may produce m- and n- and w-.

> I also consider that *me and He-gho-
> most probably are the same root.
> gho as evidenced by Chinese is NG-o
> Hence instrumental form : NG-o-+ eH1 > NGw-eH1 > *m-e.

Pulleyblank reconstructs /n,W/ for Old Chinese, which is where I got
the idea.

> The similar process probably happened in Uralic
> and it just proves nothing about Uralic and PIE "closeness" :
> coincidence.

I usually don't prove things from 'probably'.


Torsten