Re: swallow vs. nighingale

----- Original Message -----

From: Grzegorz Jagodzinski

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 1:37 AM

Subject: [tied] Re: swallow vs. nighingale

---- Original Message ----
From: fournet.arnaud
To: cybalist@... s.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 3:18 AM
Subject: [!! SPAM] Re: [tied] swallow vs. nighingale

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Grzegorz Jagodzinski
> To: cybalist@... s.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [tied] swallow vs. nighingale
>
>
>> 4. "Blackbird": if Germanic *a- in *amVsla-

 ============
> A.F (old)
*a being the article is not the only possibility.
You have the Form IV in verbs that allow C_C_C to become ?_C_C_C.
This can be something like that in PIE waiting to be described properly
> ============ ======
Grzegorz wrote :
I would not like to enter too deep into Semitic linguistic here, however:

1) Birds' names are not verbs.

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A.F

I suppose that a "warbler" is a bird that warbles, and a "flycatcher" is a bird that catches flies. But I am not a native speaker of the language. I guess some bird-names do come from verbs and are derivatives.

I am afraid your anathema makes no sense.

My analysis of these H2a + m_s bird-names is this :

PIE could prefix H2a- to a (verbal) root and derive nouns.

MAybe Berber a+Root = noun is an even better example than Semitic.

 

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Grzegorz wrote :
A prefix in such names cannot rather be a causative marker, as nouns have not such a grammar category. What we may expect, are cases (marked by endings in older Semitic languages, not by prefixes) or article, marked by a prefix. There is a theory that both Arabic al- and Hebrew haC- come from a demonstrative pronoun, reconstructed in this theory as *s^aC (C = a consonant), with *s^ > h in Hebrew and *s^ > 0 in Arabic due to frequency.

==============
A.F

I think all this meandering is very far away from the issue.

=======================

Grzegorz wrote :
Summarizing, the hypothesis that the a- : 0- variation in birds names
reflects presence and absence of the article in the Semitic substrate, has
two weak points:
1) the article was not a- but *s^aC rather,
2) the ?a- morpheme is known among verbs and has a "verbal" meaning
(causative); in addition it is reconstructed as *s^a- for earlier stages of
Semitic.

==========

A.F

I have clearly rejected the idea that it could be any article,

PIE a- in a-ms-lâ is just aleph + vowel  : H2-e

I do not need any "causative" additional story.

This muddles up everything.

PIE : From (verbal) root C_C => Noun : ?a + C_C.

Variant form : ?i-

Needs nothing more.

And it is definitely not a "substrate".

Look at Greek and you will know.

 

Arnaud

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