From: Patrick Ryan
Message: 50829
Date: 2007-12-09
----- Original Message -----From: fournet.arnaudSent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 3:03 PMSubject: Re: [tied] Re: full
----- Original Message -----From: Patrick RyanTo: CybalistSent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 7:58 PMSubject: [Courrier indésirable] [tied] Re: full (was: swallow vs. nightingale)
<snip>============ =If we allow that Sumerian is related, then Sumerian bul, bul-4, and bul-5, 'inflate', indicate that the vowel which became PIE *A in this word was earlier *o/*u. That is why, among other reasons, I reconstruct *PHO-NHA as a preceding form: *po/ul.============A.FI definitely disagree.PIE polu has *o because it is basically built like a past participle.Other PIE forms are vowelless : *pl-PAA has -i- in Arabic and Egyptian *a in Touareg.***Fournet:I wrote the _PIE_ form was *pAl-, which yields *pol(- u-) and *pl-.The vowel of the pre-PIE form *po/ul has NOTHING TO DO WITH *polu-.Arabic has NO vowel; roots are triconsonantal.Touareg is NOT Egyptian.PCR***I would suggest that Sumerian inflate bul has more to do with root *puH-to blow, to breathe. And it is a verb not an adjective.***It is for this reason that I reconstructed a "skin bag being inflated/becoming full".PCR***============ =======If we are willing to expand our sights to PIE *(s)p(h)el-, 'split, split off, tear off', we can compare Sumerian pe-el (for pi+il(i)-5 = *pil), 'dig, excavate'. If this is valid, it tells us that the form preceding *(s)p(h)el- was *PHFE-NHA: *pe/il-.With this latter, we can compare Arabic falaHa, 'cultivate, till'. With the former, Arabic ?aflaHa, 'prosperous' .========A.FI have previously refuted this assertion.One basic rule of etymology is that the best explanations are synchronic,The meaning "prosperous, successful" is a metaphoric use of the verb "to cut"As in "break-thru" from "break". Here Arabic uses "cut" instead of "break" to express "success". To cultivate is cut the earth.None of these words has anything to do with *p_l "full".***Correction: you have previously asserted this refutation.I believe your synchronic explanation is totally without merit.PCR***============<snip>There are a number of prefixes like ?a- that can be added to Arabic verbs to produce various nuances of the basic verbal idea but note: these are added to triliterals. ?a to f-l-H.============ ======A.FThis is the Form IV of Arab grammarians.Very often it does not change the meaning, but transitivity.It can be further expanded as form XIIYour last statement : **added to tri-literals* * is false :zaqq : to jump = ?azaq (z_q : 2)aqlawla : to fly in the air very high : Form XII (q_l : 2)Apart from a good dictionary of Arabic, I warmly recommend you also get a good grammar.***z-q-q is a triliteral (geminate): Form IV would be ?azqaqa.Do you dispute this?PCR***============ ==Your idea that prefixes can be added to biliterals, which hardly exist in Arabic, such as H-, r-, ?a to f-l. which preserves its meaning of 'fill/full' is totally contrary to established theory.=======A.FThis is not "my idea"although I adhere to this approachI give you again the relevant source.The three books on the left describe the theory.***If you are not prepared to present arguments for this "theory", no one on this list will give it the slightest credence, I think.PCR***============ ========= ==And, in the case of these 'derivatives' , you have so far been unable to substantiate the meanings that Kazimirski assigned them.===========<snip>============ ======I keep asking where you obtained Egyptian "Hipulil". It is a figment of someone's imagination.==========A.FFirst time you asked.So answer is : From M. Georges Roquet : a specialist of Coptic and Egyptianwho works on the reconstruction of Old Egyptian.Serious work.I think he will probably publish his reconstructions in two or three years.=***If he publishes a book with Hipulil in it, I doubt there will be a second publication.Egyptian words are without indicated vowel: does Roquet perhaps mean Hfn?PCR***.***