Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian

From: fournet.arnaud
Message: 50089
Date: 2007-09-26


 
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Ryan
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:42 AM
Subject: [Courrier indsirable] Re: Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian



 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian



 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 11:48 PM
Subject: [Courrier indsirable] Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian



 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian



There is no PIE "vowel" phoneme *u; it exists only as an avocalic allophone of *w.
 
Patrick Ryan
 
============ =======
 
PIE definitely had four vocalic phonemes :
/i/ /o/ /u/ and /a=e/.
You are confusing morphology and phonology.
This avocalic allophone of *w is morphology not phonology.
 
***
 
I never fail to wonder at those who proclaim such nonsense.
 
Well, you can persuade me of your view by doing something simple:
 
1) list 5 PIE verbal roots of the form *CiC-;
 
2) list 5 PIE verbal roots of the form *CuC-.
 
I will not be holding my breath.
 
PR
***
 
==========================
A.F
I know what people like you think.
I think you are so overweeningly convinced to be right,
it is no use giving you any "spiritual food".
You are that kind of dumb hard-hats of Indo-Europeanism.
Fortunately, there are people on this forum with whom one may disagree and nevertheless hope to achieve some great exchange of (differing) views.
 
Just look at the hundreds of I.E roots where -i- alternate with -u-.
And you will know :
S-lip versus lub-ricate
ETC ETC ETC
 
=======================
 
 
 
***
four phonemes? Utterly wrong!
 
What in Heaven's name leads you to believe "/a=e/"? This is pure fantasy.
 
PR
============ ========= ========= ==
A.F
/a/ is the basic universal vowel in every mankind's language.
So it must have existed in PIE
(Sorry but I believe PIE is not just a fictional exercise in order to create a forum)
So /a/ existed in PIE, but tradition has it that Brugmann a2 is written <e>
to be read as /a/ when you are a linguist trained in phonology.
No fantasy at all.
I believe in Phonology. Organs never lie. People do.
I am afraid you are a little bit tender and soft in Phonology.
 
***
I have no doubt that /a/ is quite common but that does not mean that it existed in every (proto-)language. Arabic, for instance, has /a/ only as an allophone of the much commoner /æ/, transcribed as <a> in classical Arabic.
 
========
A.F
Stupid.
/a/ can be realized as [â][o] [a] or [æ] or [e]
and still be /a/
Conclusion : you are incompetent.
===========
 
 
To read PIE <e> as /a/ is simply illogical. PIE <e> appears as /e/ in most PIE-derived languages.
 
============
A.F
Stupid
Most common occurences prove nothing.
Your thinking level is too shallow.
==============
 
PIE *e/*o/*Ø probably at the earliest was one vowel. What it actually was, we do not know (/Ә/ ???). It may also, of course, have been /a/ but at the stage where regular Ablaut emerges, it would have had to disappear.
 
==============
A.F
Ok
I step out.
Roam in the dark,
among yelling wolves and burning dragons,
with your dumb ideas.
======================
 
 
PR
***
============ =========
 
 
 
***
 
In the word kuH2on : -u- is a PIE vowel
treating as a vowel, in Greek and in the other languages.
 
It is a pity your are completely in the dark,
Get yourself a Handbook of Structuralism from the 50ies.
You may be a good comparatist
but as a linguist, you are not worth much.
 
This is the problem with letter-games :
it is not phonology : it is nothing but flapdoodle.
 
***
I think you may be the one lacking in linguistic knowledge.
 
EVERY PIE root has the form *CV or *CVC.
 
 The permissible vowel  (*V)is only *e or *o.
 
Patrick Ryan
============ ========
Yeah ! Good boy !
You believe the fairy tales you are told :
 
What do you think about :
 
Standard PIE : wrugh-yos "rye"
Thracian and Macedonian : briza "rye" from *wrigh-ya.
 
Can you not see that *i and *u alternate in *wr_gh- ?
 
Try to think by yourself !
 
I am a bad boy :
I have this compulsive reaction to check everything I am told.
 
*e and *o are the most frequent permissible vowels in a consonant skeleton,
"most frequent", nothing more.
*i and *u also exist, but they are rarer, not impossible.
 
Sorry to ruin your (shallow) certainties
but it is for your own good.
 
***
I believe your certainties are shallow because you cannot seem to argue your "points" without disparaging the other position.
 
***
 
As for *wrugh-yo-, P0korny has no trouble deriving Thracian briza from *wrugh-ya:, thus necessitating no reason to "alternate". I would be highly surprised to find ANY qualified IEist who asserts an Ablaut-like alternation between /i/ and /u/. 
 
==============
A.F
I know there is probably none.
But most qualified IE-ists display a strong level of consanguinity,
After a certain number of generations, it becomes lethal.
 
===================
 
 
Patrick Ryan
*** 
.