----- Original Message -----From: Patrick RyanSent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:42 AMSubject: [Courrier indsirable] Re: Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian
----- Original Message -----From: fournet.arnaudSent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:50 PMSubject: Re: Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian
----- Original Message -----From: Patrick RyanSent: Monday, September 24, 2007 11:48 PMSubject: [Courrier indsirable] Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian
----- Original Message -----From: fournet.arnaudSent: Monday, September 24, 2007 3:24 PMSubject: Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian
There is no PIE "vowel" phoneme *u; it exists only as an avocalic allophone of *w.Patrick Ryan============ =======PIE definitely had four vocalic phonemes :/i/ /o/ /u/ and /a=e/.You are confusing morphology and phonology.This avocalic allophone of *w is morphology not phonology.***I never fail to wonder at those who proclaim such nonsense.Well, you can persuade me of your view by doing something simple:1) list 5 PIE verbal roots of the form *CiC-;2) list 5 PIE verbal roots of the form *CuC-.I will not be holding my breath.PR***==========================A.FI know what people like you think.I think you are so overweeningly convinced to be right,it is no use giving you any "spiritual food".You are that kind of dumb hard-hats of Indo-Europeanism.Fortunately, there are people on this forum with whom one may disagree and nevertheless hope to achieve some great exchange of (differing) views.Just look at the hundreds of I.E roots where -i- alternate with -u-.And you will know :S-lip versus lub-ricateETC ETC ETC=======================***four phonemes? Utterly wrong!What in Heaven's name leads you to believe "/a=e/"? This is pure fantasy.PR============ ========= ========= ==A.F/a/ is the basic universal vowel in every mankind's language.So it must have existed in PIE(Sorry but I believe PIE is not just a fictional exercise in order to create a forum)So /a/ existed in PIE, but tradition has it that Brugmann a2 is written <e>to be read as /a/ when you are a linguist trained in phonology.No fantasy at all.I believe in Phonology. Organs never lie. People do.I am afraid you are a little bit tender and soft in Phonology.***I have no doubt that /a/ is quite common but that does not mean that it existed in every (proto-)language. Arabic, for instance, has /a/ only as an allophone of the much commoner /æ/, transcribed as <a> in classical Arabic.========A.FStupid./a/ can be realized as [â][o] [a] or [æ] or [e]and still be /a/Conclusion : you are incompetent.===========To read PIE <e> as /a/ is simply illogical. PIE <e> appears as /e/ in most PIE-derived languages.============A.FStupidMost common occurences prove nothing.Your thinking level is too shallow.==============PIE *e/*o/*Ø probably at the earliest was one vowel. What it actually was, we do not know (/Ә/ ???). It may also, of course, have been /a/ but at the stage where regular Ablaut emerges, it would have had to disappear.==============A.FOkI step out.Roam in the dark,among yelling wolves and burning dragons,with your dumb ideas.======================PR***============ =========***In the word kuH2on : -u- is a PIE voweltreating as a vowel, in Greek and in the other languages.It is a pity your are completely in the dark,Get yourself a Handbook of Structuralism from the 50ies.You may be a good comparatistbut as a linguist, you are not worth much.This is the problem with letter-games :it is not phonology : it is nothing but flapdoodle.***I think you may be the one lacking in linguistic knowledge.EVERY PIE root has the form *CV or *CVC.The permissible vowel (*V)is only *e or *o.Patrick Ryan============ ========Yeah ! Good boy !You believe the fairy tales you are told :What do you think about :Standard PIE : wrugh-yos "rye"Thracian and Macedonian : briza "rye" from *wrigh-ya.Can you not see that *i and *u alternate in *wr_gh- ?Try to think by yourself !I am a bad boy :I have this compulsive reaction to check everything I am told.*e and *o are the most frequent permissible vowels in a consonant skeleton,"most frequent", nothing more.*i and *u also exist, but they are rarer, not impossible.Sorry to ruin your (shallow) certaintiesbut it is for your own good.***I believe your certainties are shallow because you cannot seem to argue your "points" without disparaging the other position.***As for *wrugh-yo-, P0korny has no trouble deriving Thracian briza from *wrugh-ya:, thus necessitating no reason to "alternate". I would be highly surprised to find ANY qualified IEist who asserts an Ablaut-like alternation between /i/ and /u/.==============A.FI know there is probably none.But most qualified IE-ists display a strong level of consanguinity,After a certain number of generations, it becomes lethal.===================Patrick Ryan***.