Re: RE : [tied] Germanic (Was Re: North of the Somme)

From: Rick McCallister
Message: 49733
Date: 2007-08-31

I remember reading somewhere that Bastarnae meant
"Bastards" and was an exonym applied by the Goths and
others to a group that was seen as the "trailer trash
of barbarians".

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> <gknysh@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com,
> "fournet.arnaud"
> > > <fournet.arnaud@>
> > > wrote:
> > Germanic displays a very
> > > strong eastern (and not
> > > > northern) tropism. Somewhere in the middle of
> > > Kazakhstan seems the
> > > > right place ?!?
> > >
> > > Some Germanic verb morphology (preterite/ppp)
> looks
> > > Iranian, I've
> > > claimed before. So more likely the area of the
> > > Skiri/Bastarnae in
> > > Southern Poland.
> > >
> > >
> > > Torsten
> >
> > ****GK: We're perilously close to Kooksville here.
> The
> > notion that "Southern Poland" is the birthplace of
> > Germanic has at least the name of the "Skiri" and
> > "Bastarnae" going for it. (Next question: where
> did
> > they come from? They are mentioned in the
> Protogenes
> > Decree of Olbia [ca. 200 BC] as "allies" of the
> > Galatians. A case can be made form the contention
> that
> > Galatae+Skiri= Bastarnae (the root "bast-" seems
> to
> > refer to "binding" in a few languages, including
> > Germanic, which is applicable to members of an
> > alliance (one of those pre-nation state
> "political"
> > realities).]
>
> *bast- does appear in the Germanic (and Romance,
> bâtir etc) languages,
> but is *not* derivable from PIE *bhe(n)dh- "bind"
> within Germanic, in
> fact it doesn't have an etymology within Germanic.
> However, it is
> derivable in Iranian from that root; Ossetic bætt&n
> "tie", past stem
> (for preterite and ppp) bast "tied", also "package".
> If the question
> hadn't been so decisive for the whole debate of
> Germanic origins, it
> would be uncontroversial, given the evidence, to
> assumer that the
> Germanic root is a loan from Iranian.
>
>
> > The written record is quite sparse. The
> > Skiri and Galatae (=Bastarnae) are clearly recent
> > arrivals in the southeast Europe area as of 200
> BC.
>
> I disagree. Peoples may appear seemingly out of
> nowhere given the
> right ingredients are present, a small number of men
> with a project
> and a set of languages to make a creole out of. A
> large number of
> people are now involved in running the state of
> Papua New Guinea in
> the language called Tok Pisin; would you also ask
> where the Tok Pisin
> people arrived from?
> With names like Skiri and Bastarnae, you'd expect
> there to be a mixing
> of something, and some 'limpieza de sangre'
> sociology. Cf.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae
> esp. Tacitus.
> What do you think of the article's identification of
> them with the
> Zarubintsy culture?
>
>
> > The archaeological evidence indicates that the
> > population of the key Bastarnian territory in
> Moldavia
> > was originally Daco-Thracian as to culture. New
> > elements from the Baltic Pomorian culture and from
> the
> > Jastorf culture appear in the 3rd and 2nd c. BC
> (which
> > is when Galatae, Skiri, and Bastarnae enter the
> > historical sources). The Galatae may have been
> > dominant in earlier times (Polybius thinks the
> > Bastarnae were Galatian), but the known names of
> > Bastarnian chiefs have Germanic rather than Celtic
> > affinities.
>
> Please cite their names. All I could find were three
> hapax names from
> Gibbons' The Decline etc.
>
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/13998
>
>
> > Sarmatian contact is even later.
>
> How do we know that?
>
>
> > So logic
> > would indicate that Germanic was not created in
> this
> > area, but arrived from Pomorian and Jastorf
> locales.
>
> Which would have the same language, you mean?
>
>
> > Anyway that's my (and not only my) methodology.
> When
> > something seems extremely probable you support it
> > rather than to opt for an alternative which is
> > INFINITELY less probable.
>
> You should also take care to characterize your
> opponent's view with
> capital letters.
>
>
> > Torsten has a different
> > approach: if there is something that he likes and
> that
> > is not COMPLETELY impossible (even if the
> probability
> > is of the rate of .000001%) he will defend it to
> the
> > death.
>
> No fatwa? You seem to have mellowed over time. I
> would like to point
> out that .000001% is much larger than the reciprocal
> of infinity.
>
>
> Torsten
>
>
>
>




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