Re: RE : [tied] Re: North of the Somme

----- Original Message -----

From: george knysh

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:56 PM

Subject: Re: RE : [tied] Re: North of the Somme

--- Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@ yahoo.com> wrote:

> My understanding of the "known historical facts" of
> the lower Rhine area is that it was originally
> Celtic
> and then was invaded by Germanic speakers.

=====================

A.F

I tend to agree with this. Rhine = ri:nos < *rei-nos obviously displays Celtic features.

====================

****GK: This is compatible with what Caesar says in
DBG 2. However, since Caesar did not distinguish
between Germanic-speakers and NWB-speakers, the
Torsten-Kuhn thesis seems equally compatible. The
notion that the Belgic invaders from "earlier times"
(in any case prior to the Cimbri-Teutones saga) were
also Celtic-speakers depends on whether the
distinction between Celtic languages was already so
great that Caesar might consider "Belgic" and
"Gaulish" to be mutually incomprehensible or nearly
so

==================================

 My own view is that the Somme-Marne boundary of
"Gallia Belgica" (DBG 1:1) was basically political
rather than ethnic or linguistic.

A.F

this notion of a "political" boundary is a complete projection of modern times' Nation-States after the French Revolution of 1789.

Gold and Silver coins on both sides of the supposed border are the same. There is no reason to cut the place in two.

 

Immediately north of
it resided tribal groups just as "Celtic" or "Gallic"
(if you will) as those of Gallia Celtica, but
politically associated to, and frequently subordinate
to the northern "invaders" (which explains to me
Caesar's wording in DBG 1:1). At least half and
perhaps more than half of the population of Gallia
Belgica was Gaulish, from the Bellovaci, Remi, and
Suessiones to the Viromandui and Atrebates.

My view
(which Torsten is welcome not to share) is that
everything north and east of the Atrebates/Viromandu i
was Germanic-speaking in Caesar's time.

===================

A.F :

Such an hypothesis crashes on the hard fact that many toponyms in this supposed "Germanic" speaking area share the same lexical roots and same gallo-roman-epoch mould as the typonyms south of this place. "Germanic" people arrived later.

And to suppose "Germanic" requires to identify which "Germanic" language is involved (ter repetitas) ?

 

That, BTW, is
also what one can gather from the author of DBG 8
(Aulus Hirtius, Caesar's Continuator) . I don't think
there is anything either in historical linguistics
(AFAIK) or in archaeological data which contradicts
Caesar's famous dictum (in DBG 1:1). But further
evidence is of course always welcome.****

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