Re: Comments on Beekes' pre-Greek

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
>
> > > The Greek change is independent of any borrowing. There would
> > > also be kt>kk or k (ark(t)os); is that from borrowing?
> >
> > Beekes has k/kt as his alternation 1b which he explains by merging
> > it with his alternation 5b kt/sk which he explains by positing a
> > consonant capable of becoming both s and t (explaining kt as
> > metathesized tk), as well as lost altogether, namely tY.
>
> What about kW>kY>tY>t before front V? If py > pt includes stages
> with pY (very likely),

What does that mean and how would you tell?

> wouldn't ty>tYy and similar changes have occurred earlier?

How would ty differ from tYy?

> Probably also ti>tYi>sYi>si in dialects. I don't think there's any
> stage in which a foreign borrowing with tY could enter Greek when
> there was no tY.

No tY in Greek you mean? You think a language can't borrow a word if
it contains a phoneme the language doesn't have? Wrong.

> This theory doesn't explain anything that needs an explanation:
> some dialects had some late changes involving some Ct clusters;
> there's nothing non-Greek about it.

If you want to dispute the existence of Beekes' pre-Greek, I think you
should offer reasons to do that.

> In order to defend this theory you've had to say that obviously IE
> words are really loans.

That's not obvious to me.

> There's nothing about any change that shows foreign influence;

Those interchanges occur in words that don't have a proper IE derivation.

> there are simple sound changes in the dialects of almost every
> language.

Obviously. How is this relevant?

> Some words without certain etymologies also undergo these changes:

See above.

> that doesn't mean that they are definitely borrowed or that ONLY
> borrowed words undergo these changes;

That is Beekes' contention.

> neither is there any evidence that these are really alternations
> from borrowing foreign phonemes.

Do you have a better explanation?

> > I wasn't aware of an alternation arkos/arktos, but if so, the
> > "bear" word is a loan in IE., which would explain the s Latin
> > ursus.
>
> Oh? So this isn't just a theory of loans into Greek in Greece? I
> don't accept anything about the earlier formation and this is even
> less likely.

Aha.


Torsten