Re: [tied] Bird names, etc. (was: Re: sea, seal)

Another problem with this #a- prefix is that it is well attested in Greek

so there is no reason to suppose this is not an indo-european feature :

the foot notes are from Chantraine 's Etymological dictionary of Greek language

(Sorry for the inconvenience of sending a message half in French)

Grec a-glîs[1] et gelgis "tête d'ail" < *√g_l_y

Grec a-glaFos et glaukos "brillant" < *√g_l_w

Grec a-greiphna[2] "herse, rateau" et grîphos "filet"< *√gh_bh "saisir, attraper"

Grec aielouros < *a-wisel-[3] "chat sauvage", Latin vison "vison", Anglais weasel "belette" < *√wis-

Grec aigupios[4] et gups "vautour"

Grec a-mal-os, a-blêkhros et blêkhros "faible, doux" < *√m_l

Grec a-nepsios[5] "cousin germain" < *√nep-ot "neveu"

Grec a-pion[6] < *a-pis-on "poire" et Latin pirus < *pisos "poire"

Grec a-sp-is "vipère aspic" et Latin serpens "serpent" < *√s_p "ramper, serpent"

Grec a-spalaks et spalaks "taupe"

Grec a-s-pharangos[7] "gosier, gorge" et pharungs "gosier" < *√bh_r-

Grec a-staphis[8] et staphis "raisin sec", staphulê "grappe de raisin"

Grec a-stakhus et stakhus "épi de blé"

Grec a-stralos[9] et Latin sturnus "étourneau" < *√st_r-/tr_s- "étourneau, grive"

Grec a-tharê "bouillie de farine ou de gruau" < *ghrew "gruau"[10]

Grec a-nthrênê "bourdon", tenthrêne "guêpe", thrônaks "bourdon" < *√dhren "bourdonner"

Grec a-trapos[11] "sentier" et trapeô "fouler, marcher sur"

[1] Cf. Chantraine : "ne peut être séparé de gelgis (voir ce mot)."

[2] Cf. Chantraine : "l'α- étant une prothèse non autrement expliquée."

[3] L'élément final ouros signifie "queue".

[4] Le -i- après #a- est sans doute dû à l'influence d'autres noms d'oiseaux commençant par #ai-.

[5] Cf. Chantraine : "l'α- initial présente l'ambiguïté habituelle, mais semble devoir être interprété comme une prothèse (ou un ə₂)".

[6] Cf. Chantraine : "Il faut admettre un thème *piso, l'α initial fait difficulté comme souvent (prothèse ?)"

[7] Cf. Chantraine : "Le sens précis du mot conduirait à le rapprocher de pharungs."

[8] Cf. Chantraine : "Le thème fait penser à celui de staphulê "grappe de raisin". La forme à initiale α- semble la plus ancienne. Est-ce une prothèse ?"

[9] Cf. Chantraine : "Avec prothèse, se rapproche évidemment de v.h.a stara, lat. sturnus."

[10] En admettant une métathèse *ghrew > *ghwer > θer.

[11] Cf. Chantraine : "il faut admettre un α- copulatif et la racine qui se trouve dans trapeô "fouler" [...] c'est la piste foulée."

----- Original Message -----

From: stlatos

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:23 AM

Subject: [Courrier indésirable] [tied] Bird names, etc. (was: Re: sea, seal)

--- In cybalist@... s.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:

> It's not certain to be IE.
> from Schrijver: Lost Languages in Northern Europe,
> in Early Contacts between Uralic and Indo-European

> "
> The second substratum language I shall label "the language of bird
> names", as a number of non-Indo-European bird names in western
> Indo-European languages provide evidence on some significant points of
> the structure of that language (Schrijver 1997). Most importantly, it
> had a prefix a-, which was probably stressed and accompanied by
> syncope of vowels in the rest of the word; the language had fricatives
> such as x, ð, and it had a diphthong alien to Germanic and Celtic,
> something like [a&], which was rendered as a in British Celtic and ai
> in Germanic.
> "

There are many things wrong with these assumptions. For example,
this word starts with o-:

--- In cybalist@... s.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:

> > > These are Schriijver's examples:
> > > *mesVl-, *a-m(V)sl- "blackbird"
> Welsh mwyalch
> Latin merula
> OHG amsla, amasla, amisla, amusla
> OE o:sle

as *omsl- > *smo:l- in Ir smo:lach 'thrush'; Welsh has *mo:lako- >
*mo:alko-, etc.

These are likely from a dim. of *xWoms.o- 'shoulder' with an
inserted V to break up the *msl cluster (or in PIE, depending on what
you believe). The 'wing / shoulder' connection is found in other IE
words.

For example > L:

xWoms.o .. xWoms.Lo
xWoms.o .. xWoms.eLo
xWomes.o . xWomes.eLo
xWomez.o . xWomez.eLo
omez.o ... omez.eLo
umez.o ... umez.eLo
umez.o ... mez.eLo (not accented u-)
etc.

> > > *la&waD-, *a-lawD- "lark"
> OIce lævirki
> OE la:verce
> OHG le:rahha, le:rihha
> MDutch le:werke
> Finn leivo(nen)
> Gaulish in
> Latin alauda

No fricative D is needed for this; Latin probably just dissimilated
l-r > l-d (like r-r in cru:dus, the opp. of d-d in meridie:s).

> Other examples:
>
> *kr&xar "heron"
> Welsh crehyr
> PGmc h(r)aiGar-
> Finn haikara

No fric. x is needed; either there's dis. k-g > k-z or else gY>z.
between y_r. (as sim. changes I've described before) in Celtic.

> *spra&w-
> Breton frao "crow, jackdaw"
> PGmc *spraiw- "starling"

Why not *psar, Germanic *sparwa(n)- 'sparrow' with metathesis?

> > > *teroP, *a-str(a)P- "lightning, sulphur"
> Greek (à)steropé:, (à)strapé: "lightning"
> OIr straif, sraib "sulphur"

Why wouldn't the Greek be related to 'star' and the Irish from
something like *survur > *sruvur > *sruvu > *sruvi by dis., etc?

> > > *raud-, *a-ru/id- "ore"
> Latin raudus "lump of ore"
> OHG aruz, ariz
> OSax arut
> Finn rauta
> NLapp ruow´de
> OIce raudhi
> cf PIE h1roudh- "red" ("copper-colored" ?)

> *ba&s "boar"
> Welsh baedd
> PGmc *baiza-

These could be borrowed, but there's no reason to think they're from
the same language. If Germanic < Celtic, or the reverse, z/d might be
the closest sounds available at whatever time.